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How over powered are modern PCs?

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Reply 80 of 101, by matze79

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Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-08, 17:53:

With Windows 11 here and Microsoft laying the axe to so much hardware that is perfectly capable of running their shiny new OS I wonder how much used hardware is going to get tossed in the name of forced obsolescence.
At a time when we REALLY can't afford to do so.

Actually Windows 11 runs on most all Hardware that also runs Windows 8.1 64bit.

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Reply 81 of 101, by leileilol

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Errius wrote on 2021-11-24, 11:47:

The Armagetron installer is only 3 MB. I installed the game yesterday and was surprised by this. The installed game takes up only 7 MB.

There's really not a lot of art required to do for a tron cycles clone. All the graphics and sounds total just 400kb, and the rest of the bulk are the libraries, documentation, localization and binary, so there's great optimizing opportunities there...

it's also old and developed in a time before armchair devs telling you 'modern code' and to use platform-regressive big bloated libraries or risk breaking wayland yutani or something.

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Reply 82 of 101, by trozx

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Interesting topic.

I've often had similar thoughts about computing power vs code optimization. That ratio seemed closer together in the early days of x86 and even systems like the Comodore 64.

Isn't assembly still the most efficient language?

Inagine a company that codes for modern hardware in only assembly. From the ground up - OS, apps, even firmware, and SoC implementations. Yes, it would be expensive, but fantastic.

In the modern world we have computers
within computers stacked together running closed source software. Your cell phone and sim card are an excellent example of this digital plywood. How inefficient and insecure they are.

Yes, imagine what these machines could really do, unhampered by spaghetti (code), off shelf solutions, and bad actors?

Now we have quantum computers emerging. Will they have a chance?

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Reply 83 of 101, by gerry

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trozx wrote on 2021-11-25, 07:51:
Interesting topic. […]
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Interesting topic.

I've often had similar thoughts about computing power vs code optimization. That ratio seemed closer together in the early days of x86 and even systems like the Comodore 64.

Isn't assembly still the most efficient language?

Inagine a company that codes for modern hardware in only assembly. From the ground up - OS, apps, even firmware, and SoC implementations. Yes, it would be expensive, but fantastic.

and very late project times, difficult to maintain and prone to failure should hardware change in any way in the future

huge focus already goes into development tools in order to avoid applications needing to be built in assembly, in fact many applications are built on layers of libraries

it does seem inefficient, but not from the perspective of development time, portability, maintainability and so on

but yes - it would be amazing to see an OS and all apps in fine tuned assembly, imagine the speed of use! 😀

Reply 84 of 101, by digistorm

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I don’t think it is just the assembly that makes it fast, but rather the minimal use of libraries, frameworks and in particular all kinds of abstraction layers. It is not only to “speed up development”, some coders seem to get a kick out of making this “elegant” solution that can do most anything so “elegant” and “generic” and cool and human readable to the point that it takes up more time perfecting the elegant-ness than if it was just plainly coded flat from scratch with a lean function set. “But of course” this great elegant code will be all reused in the next big project. Only it doesn’t, uncountable additions, add-ons, complications, extra checks are added to accommodate the new project and this “elegant” library now has a ton of functions and sanity checks to support older code that is in the end hardly used, etc. etc. It is almost the same as with standards. More and more gets added but it MUST support all those old products, even if their use of that library barely overlaps and it would be better to start from scratch from time to time. Like Apple does. And they make underspecced phones that still outperform rivals.

Reply 85 of 101, by PennilessPaul

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trozx wrote on 2021-11-25, 07:51:
Interesting topic. […]
Show full quote

Interesting topic.

I've often had similar thoughts about computing power vs code optimization. That ratio seemed closer together in the early days of x86 and even systems like the Comodore 64.

Isn't assembly still the most efficient language?

Inagine a company that codes for modern hardware in only assembly. From the ground up - OS, apps, even firmware, and SoC implementations. Yes, it would be expensive, but fantastic.

In the modern world we have computers
within computers stacked together running closed source software. Your cell phone and sim card are an excellent example of this digital plywood. How inefficient and insecure they are.

Yes, imagine what these machines could really do, unhampered by spaghetti (code), off shelf solutions, and bad actors?

Now we have quantum computers emerging. Will they have a chance?

Sim.jpg

Compilers have come a long way. It is said that a modern compiler (gcc, clang or msvc), with the necessary command-line flags, compiling decently-written C code will beat you in optimization than your equivalent handwritten assembly code for any non-trivial program in most cases.

Reply 87 of 101, by subhuman@xgtx

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I bought a 16gb/1tb M1 Air earlier this year. No fan. Great UI. Sharp screen. Awesome trackpad. Happy with the performance. Despite the shortcomings of owning an Apple laptop, using it as a daily driver feels pleasant. Don't see myself updating my gaming rig anytime soon - it's just become too much of the same.

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Reply 88 of 101, by Jasin Natael

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clueless1 wrote on 2021-11-19, 00:24:
Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-15, 17:00:
I don't notice a drag on my 3900x system either. It might be there but I guess the resources are just that much higher so it goe […]
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Claris wrote on 2021-11-13, 03:45:

Definitely not noticing it then with my 3900X and 32gb ram. Although i do try to keep down on the clutter whenever possible. No Razer Synapse/Icue/ASUS Aura Sync/spyware junk in the background. No Google Chrome either. No Epic Game Store/Uplay/Origin. Just Steam and Battlenet for Warzone.

Iv spent an hour or so today optimizing my BFs PC to keep it as bloat free as possible. Did a small overclock on his 6600K too and it seems to be a bit snappier. Happy overall!

I don't notice a drag on my 3900x system either. It might be there but I guess the resources are just that much higher so it goes unnoticed.
My desktop at work is a meger i5-7500 and boy do I ever notice a drag at times with it.
And of course I'm not gaming with it just the usual office work.

🤷 My i7-4770 with 12GB DDR3 and SSD feels as snappy as ever. I can't ever notice a 'drag'. Running Windows 10 with a GTX1650 Super.

You probably won't for some time. As long as you have 8 threads and sufficient ram I doubt you will notice any issues. Drop that to a 4570 and 6-8GB and I bet the story might change.

Reply 89 of 101, by Jasin Natael

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Joakim wrote on 2021-11-23, 20:23:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote on 2021-11-19, 03:17:

The problem is; it is always bogged down by certain websites, like WhatsApp Web and Quora. But the worst offender is always video conferencing software like Zoom and Microsoft Teams

MS Teams must be one of the most inefficient softwares ever written. It takes over a gig of ram even when it is running in background..

Indeed. It is horrible. Combine it with the rest of Office suite and it is a ram gobbling monster.

Reply 90 of 101, by Jasin Natael

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matze79 wrote on 2021-11-24, 12:03:
Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-08, 17:53:

With Windows 11 here and Microsoft laying the axe to so much hardware that is perfectly capable of running their shiny new OS I wonder how much used hardware is going to get tossed in the name of forced obsolescence.
At a time when we REALLY can't afford to do so.

Actually Windows 11 runs on most all Hardware that also runs Windows 8.1 64bit.

Yeah, it will run on a lot of things. But it isn't officially supported. Now this doesn't matter to a lot of people but most IT admins HAVE to consider this before deploying. Also, just because you cannget it to work with your CPU/RAM doesnt mean you can always get the Secure Boot/TPM issues resolved.

My gripe is that is isn't necessary to blacklist all the otherwise capable hardware. Microsoft claims it is all about security and stability, but I'm not buying it. If a i5-7500 can run Windows 10 21h2, it can ALSO run Windows 11 21h2

Reply 91 of 101, by matze79

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Maybe at some point they activate features by default and then maybe the hw would not cope.
Imagine a huge bureau where all PCs installed a Update that makes them unable to work.
Would be hard for a admin to explain.

Official Support only for devices supporting all windows 11 features.
But there is also "Export Edition" who runs without all TPM Stuff.

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Reply 92 of 101, by RaiderOfLostVoodoo

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Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-29, 18:11:

You probably won't for some time. As long as you have 8 threads and sufficient ram I doubt you will notice any issues. Drop that to a 4570 and 6-8GB and I bet the story might change.

While I can't agree on the 4570 (I use one myself), I definitely agree on the RAM.
8GB is about the minimum now. After I upgraded to 32GB (2400MHz) I'm quite happy again. Now I can have >100 tabs opened again.
Only thing that needs an upgrade is the GPU (GTX 560 🤣). But not at the current prices.

Reply 93 of 101, by DosFreak

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Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-29, 18:14:
Joakim wrote on 2021-11-23, 20:23:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote on 2021-11-19, 03:17:

The problem is; it is always bogged down by certain websites, like WhatsApp Web and Quora. But the worst offender is always video conferencing software like Zoom and Microsoft Teams

MS Teams must be one of the most inefficient softwares ever written. It takes over a gig of ram even when it is running in background..

Indeed. It is horrible. Combine it with the rest of Office suite and it is a ram gobbling monster.

Like alot of modern applications it uses Electron or CEF. Either or it's a hog. Supposedly the new Teams will be moving to something more efficient.....

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Reply 94 of 101, by retardware

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RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:13:

While I can't agree on the 4570 (I use one myself), I definitely agree on the RAM.
8GB is about the minimum now. After I upgraded to 32GB (2400MHz) I'm quite happy again. Now I can have >100 tabs opened again.
Only thing that needs an upgrade is the GPU (GTX 560 🤣). But not at the current prices.

I agree that old processors still do quite well. Using an ancient Ivy Bridge, for me it's sufficient.
But yes, RAM inflation... but it is cheap.
My last memory expansion 128GB PC3-14900R for 105 euros will hopefully last for a while without swapping.
Firefox sometimes eats >32GB here. And then I need some room for ZFS deduplication and a few Windows virtualbox clients.
Without this, I probably could live with 16 or even 8GB.

The graphics cards are also a madness imho.
GTX560 = 150W TDP. Currently using Quadro K4000, way too big too for a framebuffer at 80W TDP.
But Nvidia is going to drop driver 390 support next year so my old Quadro 2000 is going to become useless.
It's crazy, as I could probably be perfectly happy with a 10-20W 64MB framebuffer...

Reply 95 of 101, by Jasin Natael

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RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2021-11-30, 15:13:
While I can't agree on the 4570 (I use one myself), I definitely agree on the RAM. 8GB is about the minimum now. After I upgrade […]
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Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-29, 18:11:

You probably won't for some time. As long as you have 8 threads and sufficient ram I doubt you will notice any issues. Drop that to a 4570 and 6-8GB and I bet the story might change.

While I can't agree on the 4570 (I use one myself), I definitely agree on the RAM.
8GB is about the minimum now. After I upgraded to 32GB (2400MHz) I'm quite happy again. Now I can have >100 tabs opened again.
Only thing that needs an upgrade is the GPU (GTX 560 🤣). But not at the current prices.

A quad core is still plenty of grunt for day to day stuff. Any fairly modern gaming or productivity stuff will show it's weaknesses however.
Bu 100% on the RAM, even 8GB is barely enough with modern browsers and aforementioned apps. It's getting ridiculous. But at least it is cheap.

Reply 96 of 101, by Jasin Natael

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DosFreak wrote on 2021-11-30, 16:31:
Jasin Natael wrote on 2021-11-29, 18:14:
Joakim wrote on 2021-11-23, 20:23:

MS Teams must be one of the most inefficient softwares ever written. It takes over a gig of ram even when it is running in background..

Indeed. It is horrible. Combine it with the rest of Office suite and it is a ram gobbling monster.

Like alot of modern applications it uses Electron or CEF. Either or it's a hog. Supposedly the new Teams will be moving to something more efficient.....

I had not heard that. Could be some good news for once!

Reply 97 of 101, by 386SX

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I suppose also much depends on being used in the previous decade to GUI/app high useless speed that nowdays with this coding languages, layers over layers of whatever sw/dependencies seems like more difficult to mantain; smartphones evolution might have something to do with it considering the capacitive touchscreens concepts getting us used to a level of GUI frame rates/latency that back in the old times it wasn't even necessary. Imho we had MUCH more patience in most computing tasks imho in the 2000's even if indeed every sw was and ran lighter. I am trying to "downgrade" this computers and digital devices expectation and lately I tried that even a very fast Pentium 4 with HT and 4GB DDR2 and SSD with the help of a good video card and a light o.s. config/sw choice, can make a acceptable machine to work with basic modern tasks and imho even video work conferences as long as the vga support a modern OpenGL version. And lately I'm even trying again my passion for the Intel Atom early SoC configs and trying to live with a dual core one helped at best by a GT610 PCI bridged card, 4GB DDR3 and SSD. Faster than the iGPU acceleration in Win or the sort of sw renderer driver in linux but still when you get used to CPU related slower response times you understand those seconds more waiting are not a big problem.

Reply 98 of 101, by creepingnet

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An interesting thought I've also had on this subject is just how much further down the bar we were from "maxxed out" or "high performance" than we are today.

What I'm getting at is basically, you can get away with - comfortably - and depending on your use-case, far older hardware these days than we could say in 2012 or 2002. I think of this as almost foundational for how "overpowered things are now"....

2021 - I'm still running some Core 2 Duo stuff on Win10 and modern Linux distributions and they all run like gangbusters despite being over a decade old. Today, we have things like Ryzen Threadrippers at the top end, and the average PC is a Core i5 or I7 6th-9th Generation, and most people use their phones for everything anyway.

2011 - The baseline at that time would have been a Pentium 4, like my wife was still using, albeit with a 128GB SATA SSD installed (The Dell Dimension 3600 was one of the first Dells with SATA controllers) - with 3GB of RAM. I was running a Pentium D CPU in a 4 year old board with a $345 GPU at the time and that thing would run anything, and heat the apartment doing it.

2001 - Baseline at the time was Pentium II - only just a few years before. Sure, XP would install on a Pentium 90 but the experience was so glacially slow and annoying you'd be better off running Windows 98 SE, which was still a legit and supported O/S. Me? I was running a 10 year old ZEOS 486 DX-33 in a clone case with 8MB of RAM and a 124MB HDD. I got laughed at non stop for my paltry little home-built WIndows 3.1 system I was just starting on....crazy as my now favorite NEC laptops were still going for over $150.00 on E-bay back then as legitimate used portables!

Then it gets more interesting as you get into the 90's....

It seems before the PC became super-mainstream, age did not matter because ALL computers were bloody expensive back then, and so you eked as much use out of your $1500-6000 investment as you could. The further back you go, and the less homes with computers, the more true this is.

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Reply 99 of 101, by Errius

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The humble 1981 IBM PC was still going strong in the early 1990s. It was Windows that finally killed it.

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