Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-12, 20:36:

I've been computing since the 80s, so I know well what this means. […]
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Hoping wrote on 2023-04-08, 16:53:

And I'm old enough to know that in this field, everything has to move forward, I'm only concerned with how it's going to do it, and the title of this thread is giving us a warning. This is how Steam is going to move forward, leaving everything behind as if it didn't exist. And that doesn't seem right to me, because nothing appears out of nowhere. And the Steam move means that in the future, no one will be able to experience the way it was before, which many of us here do every day, goodbye gaming in real old computers.
If you have old computers, you may understand a little what I mean.

I've been computing since the 80s, so I know well what this means.

I used to use BBSs back in the 90s, for example. They're all gone now and never coming back. I've long since learned to accept the pace of technology and fact that older things invariably get replaced with newer things.

While we can preserve some of the nostalgia, some experiences will forever be confined to our memories.

There are a bunch of BBSes you can access via telnet:
https://www.telnetbbsguide.com/

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-12, 20:36:

I've been computing since the 80s, so I know well what this means. […]
Show full quote

Hoping wrote on 2023-04-08, 16:53:

And I'm old enough to know that in this field, everything has to move forward, I'm only concerned with how it's going to do it, and the title of this thread is giving us a warning. This is how Steam is going to move forward, leaving everything behind as if it didn't exist. And that doesn't seem right to me, because nothing appears out of nowhere. And the Steam move means that in the future, no one will be able to experience the way it was before, which many of us here do every day, goodbye gaming in real old computers.
If you have old computers, you may understand a little what I mean.

I've been computing since the 80s, so I know well what this means.

I used to use BBSs back in the 90s, for example. They're all gone now and never coming back. I've long since learned to accept the pace of technology and fact that older things invariably get replaced with newer things.

While we can preserve some of the nostalgia, some experiences will forever be confined to our memories.

BBSs are no longer relevant for practical reasons. These games are no longer playable on their original platforms for purely business reasons. BIG Difference.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-12, 20:36:

I used to use BBSs back in the 90s, for example. They're all gone now and never coming back.

Not quite all, it seems: https://www.howtogeek.com/686600/remember-bbs … isit-one-today/

(I guess some old dogs never learns to roll over and play dead.)

Rwolf wrote on 2023-04-13, 14:04:

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-12, 20:36:

I used to use BBSs back in the 90s, for example. They're all gone now and never coming back.

Not quite all, it seems: https://www.howtogeek.com/686600/remember-bbs … isit-one-today/

(I guess some old dogs never learns to roll over and play dead.)

I have difficulty learning why we use bbs these days maybe it's just fun to experiment with

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-04-13, 02:48:

There are a bunch of BBSes you can access via telnet:
https://www.telnetbbsguide.com/

True, there are still some BBSs still around.

I was thinking of the specific BBSs I used to use locally, which AFAIK are all no longer in existence.

Shagittarius wrote on 2023-04-13, 03:52:

BBSs are no longer relevant for practical reasons. These games are no longer playable on their original platforms for purely business reasons. BIG Difference.

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration.

Ultimately, it's Microsoft who is dropping support for their older Windows platforms. This affects both the support for Windows directly, but also potentially an technological dependencies a service like Steam has based on any supporting frameworks or other integrations (e.g. Chromium).

I can see vendors of online services dropping support just on the basis of security alone, since those older Windows platforms no longer will be getting security updates.

I also suspect this is why Valve has been pushing things like Linux and their own SteamOS as an alternative.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-13, 15:15:

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration. […]
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Shagittarius wrote on 2023-04-13, 03:52:

BBSs are no longer relevant for practical reasons. These games are no longer playable on their original platforms for purely business reasons. BIG Difference.

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration.

Ultimately, it's Microsoft who is dropping support for their older Windows platforms. This affects both the support for Windows directly, but also potentially an technological dependencies a service like Steam has based on any supporting frameworks or other integrations (e.g. Chromium).

I can see vendors of online services dropping support just on the basis of security alone, since those older Windows platforms no longer will be getting security updates.

I also suspect this is why Valve has been pushing things like Linux and their own SteamOS as an alternative.

I used to deal in erp and it used a client similar to telnet but was a pain to run on modern systems. I've been beating myself up on why we keep it and not move on to newer things like emulation. Talking to legal got a message of we need to keep this forever sigh the reason why I left it and got into writing for games

twiz11 wrote on 2023-04-13, 15:23:

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-13, 15:15:

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration. […]
Show full quote

Shagittarius wrote on 2023-04-13, 03:52:

BBSs are no longer relevant for practical reasons. These games are no longer playable on their original platforms for purely business reasons. BIG Difference.

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration.

Ultimately, it's Microsoft who is dropping support for their older Windows platforms. This affects both the support for Windows directly, but also potentially an technological dependencies a service like Steam has based on any supporting frameworks or other integrations (e.g. Chromium).

I can see vendors of online services dropping support just on the basis of security alone, since those older Windows platforms no longer will be getting security updates.

I also suspect this is why Valve has been pushing things like Linux and their own SteamOS as an alternative.

I used to deal in erp and it used a client similar to telnet but was a pain to run on modern systems. I've been beating myself up on why we keep it and not move on to newer things like emulation. Talking to legal got a message of we need to keep this forever sigh the reason why I left it and got into writing for games

I wasn't talking about Valve's point of view. I am a consumer their point of view is irrelevant to my needs. I don't give a crap how valve sees it.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-04-13, 15:15:

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration. […]
Show full quote

Shagittarius wrote on 2023-04-13, 03:52:

BBSs are no longer relevant for practical reasons. These games are no longer playable on their original platforms for purely business reasons. BIG Difference.

From Valve's POV I can see this being as much a practical consideration as it is a business consideration.

Ultimately, it's Microsoft who is dropping support for their older Windows platforms. This affects both the support for Windows directly, but also potentially an technological dependencies a service like Steam has based on any supporting frameworks or other integrations (e.g. Chromium).

I can see vendors of online services dropping support just on the basis of security alone, since those older Windows platforms no longer will be getting security updates.

I also suspect this is why Valve has been pushing things like Linux and their own SteamOS as an alternative.

Still they are selling the hardware at a loss so they must be making it up in steam subscribers. If everyone flashed their Steam Deck I imagine Valve would have to increase the cost to make up the value

Shagittarius wrote on 2023-04-13, 16:08:

I wasn't talking about Valve's point of view. I am a consumer their point of view is irrelevant to my needs. I don't give a crap how valve sees it.

Since it's not the first time Valve has dropped support for older versions of Windows, we can either adjust expectations or just stop buying things on Steam.

Unless someone is willing to file a lawsuit over this, I don't see this really changing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The likelyhood of an individual making any headway with a lawsuit is laughable, more likely they may be able to get a refund for their library but then they wouldn't have those games available for any other OS. The route to take would likely be through the EFF concerning online DRM for "complete" games and the inability to use the game on the OS you bought it for. They kind of already did this with the Exemptions which really weren't needed anyway if you read the DMCA language and precedents on prior cases but perhaps online stores need to be explicitly mentioned in the exemptions for the average person and corporations to understand (The corps already understand they intentionally confuse things for obvious reasons). The online stores would either need to get rid of the DRM or make it optional or be required to make it DRM free after a period of time or provide a refund. Breaking the DRM and providing the tools to do so is already allowed by the DMCA when the copyright owner cannot effectively control or protect since they gave that up when they dropped support.

Looking for support from fellow gamers is a dead end since the majority only care about the new shiny, they don't want you to tarnish the good name of a corporation who they think has their best interests at heart likely due to the brainwashing they receive all their lives. If you dare to "think different" you are the one who is wrong and there is no changing their mind since being proven wrong is worse than being "right".

DosFreak wrote on 2023-04-13, 18:57:

The likelyhood of an individual making any headway with a lawsuit is laughable, more likely they may be able to get a refund for their library but then they wouldn't have those games available for any other OS. The route to take would likely be through the EFF concerning online DRM for "complete" games and the inability to use the game on the OS you bought it for. They kind of already did this with the Exemptions which really weren't needed anyway if you read the DMCA language and precedents on prior cases but perhaps online stores need to be explicitly mentioned in the excemptions for the average person to understand. The online stores would either need to get rid of the DRM or make it optional or be required to make it DRM free after a period of time or provide a refund. Breaking the DRM and providing the tools to do so is already allowed by the DMCA when the copyright owner cannot effectively control or protect since they gave that up when they dropped support.

Looking for support from fellow gamers is a dead end since the majority only care about the new shiny, they don't want you to tarnish the good name of a corporation who they think has their best interests at heart likely due to the brainwashing they receive all their lives. If you dare to "think different" you are the one who is wrong and there is no changing their mind since being proven wrong is worse than being "right".

on the plus side square enix can say that there was no piracy or no breaking the DRM of babylons fall.

Oh, I don't actually expect any lawsuits to seriously come of this. People brought up the idea back when Valve dropped XP and Vista, but nothing really came of it.

Just some grumbling and complaining, and then everyone moved on. That's exactly what is going to happen now. And in a few years when Valve eventually drops Windows 10 support, we'll go through all this again.

That's why I suggested the only real options are to either adjust expectations for this sort of this (i.e. if you expect it, then there isn't much to get upset about). Or just don't use Steam in the first place.

Happens everytime any company drops support for ancient OSes.

People freak out when a company won't make drivers for their 10-20+ year old printer or other hardware so it will work on the latest MS or other random OS and then try to get people to boycott said companies.

Just makes those people look silly and petty and reinforces the fact that those same people have no idea how stuff actually works or that those companies are there to make money and have absolutely no reason to continue to support EOL products.

Same goes for when companies like Valve stop supporting EOL MS OSes and that isn't even taking into account that those MS OSes will no longer be getting any types of driver or security updates.

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-04-13, 22:58:

People freak out when a company won't make drivers for their 10-20+ year old printer or other hardware so it will work on the latest MS or other random OS and then try to get people to boycott said companies.

In the case of hardware I can understand it, since having to replace an otherwise perfectly functional piece of hardware is annoying. It needlessly contributes to E-waste as well.

I have an old HP laser printer that HP stopped issuing drivers for after Windows XP. So I keep it hooked up to my XP system any time I need to print. Haven't needed to buy a new printer since.

This is also why I'm leery of "smart" appliances with internet-enabled features. I don't want an appliance to become force-obsolete simply because a company decides to shut down some servers or something.

Instead of Steam making a client version for an OS that's no longer supported (e.g. WinXP and Win7) I would like them to offer DRM-free offline installers, just like GOG does. So, you would download the game installer on your modern OS, copy it over to your WinXP machine, and run it there. Problem solved.

I get that publishers wouldn't be too keen on this for their most recent stuff, but maybe for games that were released 10 or 15 years ago? Don't really don't see an issue there.

Possibly from my point of view I am one of those people that many would call "idiots" or something like that for not wanting to see the current world, but what I always say is that the world is much bigger than just one person and nobody can see it all.
I think that Valve's business model is not good for users in the long term, I tend to think long term, not short term, so I see Valve/Steam as the beginning of the planned obsolescence of video games.
After all these comments in this thread, I can only reaffirm that "buying" on Steam is not logical in the long term, since it does not offer any guarantee in this regard and really doesn't care about its customers.
A small example I have bought in GOG "Dragon's dogma dark arisen" in GOG can only be played in offline mode and apparently on Steam the online services of this game still work, many would choose Steam for the online functionality, but this game works on Windows 7 and Windows 8, those who buy it on Steam will not be able to play it on Windows 7 or Windows 8 starting in 2024, online or offline. This game is from the year 2017, Skyrim is Much older, but this one not so much. If I had bought it on Steam in 2024, I would ask myself the same thing as today in the case of Skyrim, that is, did I buy something, or it was just a rental.
Another case is "Kingdom Come Deliverance" this is from 2018, and it also works on Windows 7 and 8 even on the Steam page it indicates it in the requirements.
I only mention two games, and what if Microsoft further limits the requirements of Windows 11 or 12 when it comes out?
Will we have our beloved old computers where the latest version of Windows will not work, and will we have no choice but to pirate our legally "bought" games on Steam, as long as a new computer is used to download them because without the client you can't download them or do anything, and we will have nothing to use, on our old computers?
I am writing from a Core 2 duo with Windows 7 32, I also have computers with Windows 10, I have not seriously considered Windows 11 yet because I don't see a need for it.
So from my point of view that I have and love old computers, the way Steam works is completely the opposite of what I need, and I don't think Steam is going to change considering that what they are doing is nothing new.
Hopefully Valve/Steam does something new that prevents the situation I mention from happening.

Shagittarius wrote on 2023-03-28, 05:21:

I'm pretty sure this is about modern DRM and not Webkit engine compatibility issues.

Chrome 109 was the last to support Windows 7. So unless they want to be stuck on version 109 indefinitely (which means being open to exploits to that version), they will have to break compatibility with Windows 7 at some point.
It might not be the ONLY reason.

Any way to force the steam client to detect a different Windows version then?

I guess it depends on the method Steam uses to identfy the O/S? There may be actual functionality missing or changed in an older O/S that Steam needs to use, so that would have to be re-implemented separately. Equally, missing obsoleted functions may also stop older games running on a new O/S.

Some Ubuntu LTE version maybe is easier?