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First post, by DosFreak

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https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/26/23773914/a … on-remaking-web

Years ago, the web used to be a place where individuals made things. They made homepages, forums, and mailing lists, and a small bit of money with it. Then companies decided they could do things better. They created slick and feature-rich platforms and threw their doors open for anyone to join. They put boxes in front of us, and we filled those boxes with text and images, and people came to see the content of those boxes. The companies chased scale, because once enough people gather anywhere, there’s usually a way to make money off them. But AI changes these assumptions.

GIGO
🤣 "old web"

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Reply 1 of 33, by DracoNihil

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DosFreak wrote on 2023-06-27, 00:06:

lol "old web"

What in the world does that even mean?

There's plenty of "old fashioned" websites still existing plain as day. How is "AI" going to suddenly delete/kill/usurp any of that?

“I am the dragon without a name…”
― Κυνικός Δράκων

Reply 2 of 33, by keenmaster486

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I hope AI destroys the "new web" by making it even more impossible to find anything written by a real person with a Google search. It's already bad enough.

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Reply 3 of 33, by Namrok

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It's amazing how quickly LLMs went from being the thing that would obsolete work and reshape the economy, to people realizing it's literally the saying about enough monkeys at typewriters given enough time recreating the works of Shakespeare. All LLMs are is a statistical model about what words come after other words, trained on lots and lots of words that have come after other words. It doesn't parse meaning at all.

Which doesn't make it that different from your average internet keyboard warrior... but even so...

Not that I doubt companies chasing profit won't give a damn about how nonsensical or error prone LLMs are before drowning their users in AI content at scale because it's cheaper and they control the algorithm. They'll give shoving AI content down your throat whether you want it or not the old college try for about 10 years or so.

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Reply 4 of 33, by Shponglefan

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DracoNihil wrote on 2023-06-28, 14:39:

There's plenty of "old fashioned" websites still existing plain as day. How is "AI" going to suddenly delete/kill/usurp any of that?

It makes them harder to discover.

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Reply 5 of 33, by Big Pink

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DracoNihil wrote on 2023-06-28, 14:39:
DosFreak wrote on 2023-06-27, 00:06:

🤣 "old web"

What in the world does that even mean?

There's plenty of "old fashioned" websites still existing plain as day. How is "AI" going to suddenly delete/kill/usurp any of that?

We're entering Web 3.0 now (vomits), so Web 2.0 is now the old web - these kids aren't old enough to remember the old old web. Reddit will be nothing but bots. Twitter will be nothing but bots (moreso). Etc.

I thought IBM was born with the world

Reply 10 of 33, by LSS10999

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When I first hear about the word "ChatGPT" the first thing came to my mind regarding GPT was the GUID Partition Table which existed for quite a while and should be familiar with anyone booting PCs with UEFI. I know what it means now, though its usefulness varies depending on what one wants to achieve with it.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-06-28, 15:28:
DracoNihil wrote on 2023-06-28, 14:39:

There's plenty of "old fashioned" websites still existing plain as day. How is "AI" going to suddenly delete/kill/usurp any of that?

It makes them harder to discover.

I can only hope DuckDuckGo or some other less-known-compared-to-Google search engines could sufficiently resist foreign interference, including those from AI... I can't really say much about Google anymore, especially with the ongoing events in Reddit causing notable link rots on Google -- Search for some questions, and the top result is a thread from a now-dark subreddit which cannot be read anymore. Not sure about the situation now, but during the 2-day strike it could certainly be felt.

At least Internet Archive has been extremely helpful in preserving valuable information -- While not 100% guaranteed, you could always give Archive a try in case a link mentioned in an old forum post or knowledge base article ceased to be accessible.

Reply 11 of 33, by Bruninho

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-06-28, 15:20:

I hope AI destroys the "new web" by making it even more impossible to find anything written by a real person with a Google search. It's already bad enough.

Agreed.

IMO, its up to us the task of lifting back the old web as we know it before the garbage (frameworks, Javascript, web based apps, AI...) took the place. Create our own little community of old websites as an alternative. The new web is a boring, toxic place nowadays. Too much hate and "cancellations".

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 12 of 33, by Bruninho

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Big Pink wrote on 2023-06-28, 15:31:
DracoNihil wrote on 2023-06-28, 14:39:
DosFreak wrote on 2023-06-27, 00:06:

🤣 "old web"

What in the world does that even mean?

There's plenty of "old fashioned" websites still existing plain as day. How is "AI" going to suddenly delete/kill/usurp any of that?

We're entering Web 3.0 now (vomits), so Web 2.0 is now the old web - these kids aren't old enough to remember the old old web. Reddit will be nothing but bots. Twitter will be nothing but bots (moreso). Etc.

THIS!

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 13 of 33, by TheMobRules

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DracoNihil wrote on 2023-06-28, 20:50:

Well, maybe we're about to have another "Dot Com Bubble" someday?

It can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned. A term I read the other day was spot on I think: all of this began with the "APPification" of the Internet. Everything is concentrated on a few platforms/apps that have new restrictions every day (i.e. Instagram/Twitter/Reddit requiring login and using their mobile apps for no reason other than to capture analytic data so they can push more ads), the rest is either AI generated garbage, scams, ads. The other day I went nuts trying to find a driver for a retro component, the first 3 pages were all links to those "driver-whatever.com" scam sites!! Places like this forum are a haven.

Bruninho wrote on 2023-06-29, 04:28:

IMO, its up to us the task of lifting back the old web as we know it before the garbage (frameworks, Javascript, web based apps, AI...) took the place.

I curse the day Javascript and its stupid syntax became the de-facto language for everything, now for anything to work you depend on a gazillion libraries (many of which are obsolete) and bloated frameworks of dubious purpose. Add to that the hordes of new mediocre "developers" that got into programming only because of the high salary and a weakly typed language that was originally intended for very basic scripting = welcome to maintainability hell.

Reply 14 of 33, by LSS10999

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TheMobRules wrote on 2023-06-30, 07:53:

It can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned. A term I read the other day was spot on I think: all of this began with the "APPification" of the Internet. Everything is concentrated on a few platforms/apps that have new restrictions every day (i.e. Instagram/Twitter/Reddit requiring login and using their mobile apps for no reason other than to capture analytic data so they can push more ads), the rest is either AI generated garbage, scams, ads. The other day I went nuts trying to find a driver for a retro component, the first 3 pages were all links to those "driver-whatever.com" scam sites!! Places like this forum are a haven.

Yeah, DriverGuide and its copycats. I think DriverGuide existed for quite a while and the top few Google Search results tend to be theirs, pushing the links containing the actual driver (including those from manufacturers) further down. Back then you absolutely needed to use their potentially malware-ridden downloader, but now, for some sites, this behavior has kind of toned down and not mandatory, though it doesn't change the fact that these sites are hardly the right place for drivers.

As for those social platforms: Requiring login is not the only problem. Once in a while you may be asked to "verify yourself" which requires you to expose more personal info than necessary... It's more about gathering personal data than dealing with so-called "bots".

TheMobRules wrote on 2023-06-30, 07:53:
Bruninho wrote on 2023-06-29, 04:28:

IMO, its up to us the task of lifting back the old web as we know it before the garbage (frameworks, Javascript, web based apps, AI...) took the place.

I curse the day Javascript and its stupid syntax became the de-facto language for everything, now for anything to work you depend on a gazillion libraries (many of which are obsolete) and bloated frameworks of dubious purpose. Add to that the hordes of new mediocre "developers" that got into programming only because of the high salary and a weakly typed language that was originally intended for very basic scripting = welcome to maintainability hell.

Quite a few notorious supply chain incidents have happened in the JS ecosystem, particularly in the past year (2022).

PS: There's even a book named <script>alert("!Mediengruppe Bitnik");</script> which, if not properly sanitized, you know what happens.

Reply 15 of 33, by Bruninho

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TheMobRules wrote on 2023-06-30, 07:53:

I curse the day Javascript and its stupid syntax became the de-facto language for everything, now for anything to work you depend on a gazillion libraries (many of which are obsolete) and bloated frameworks of dubious purpose. Add to that the hordes of new mediocre "developers" that got into programming only because of the high salary and a weakly typed language that was originally intended for very basic scripting = welcome to maintainability hell.

Yeah. Even my company now wants to work with React frameworks. Yikes...

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 16 of 33, by schmatzler

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I work with React every day and I like it. It helps a lot with building cross-platform apps.

React-Native lets me just build an Android app that also works on Apple devices (and optionally as a web app).
I don't have to work thrice and learn Swift because I don't care about iOS - React makes me avoid it as much as possible.

I can also work with React.js on WordPress and build very modern backends for my customers. It's a one-fits-all solution.
But don't get me started on npm and Javascript libraries...every time I finish a project that uses npm half of the packages are already out of date. It is very painful.

And sadly, there are a lot of coders out there that use a ton of tools but don't understand what these tools are actually doing.
If you blindly follow a tutorial to build your app but you don't know what your commands are installing into your project, you are not a real developer. A lot of people are not real developers.
That's how you end up with outdated libraries and security holes in apps.

There's a great video by tutorialinux called "Realities of the tech industry" where they talk about programmers not knowing their tools and why it's a big problem in tech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7xqY-YxtbY

Imagine being a web dev and getting stuck because you don't know what DNS is. Turns out that's a common thing...

"Windows 98's natural state is locked up"

Reply 17 of 33, by Bruninho

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I get your point about react but I dont like it at all. I dont want a web app 100% made out of a JS framework. In fact, I despise all of the JS, honestly. The "appification" of the web is a horrible thing in my opinion, mate. browsers were meant to read web documents not to run full blown web applications that consume a lot of your RAM. And much of this blame we can put on bad devs.

"And sadly, there are a lot of coders out there that use a ton of tools but don't understand what these tools are actually doing.
If you blindly follow a tutorial to build your app but you don't know what your commands are installing into your project, you are not a real developer. A lot of people are not real developers."

Well made point. Yeah. I agree.

I for the same reason you prefer React, I prefer to learn SwiftUI to work with the Apple environment only, I never had a good experience with Android, so yea I get your point and reason, but I dont want to try again, hence why at work I am the only one who doesnt test or develop anything on Android. And that's OK because they acknowledge that I have a stunning eye for design and UI interactions, as well as finding solutions that use much less JS for squeezing a bit more performance. Sometimes I have to teach a bit of CSS to the devs (I am now a UI/UX Designer, been a frontend web dev for almost two decades).

I am also learning SwiftUI because I no longer want to work with the web. The web 2.0 and now 3.0 with the rise of JS frameworks and web apps takes away a lot of my interest in web design. So developing apps for macs and iOS have been a lot more interesting for me these days, and building native apps is bringing me back to the excitement levels I had when I was developing websites for the web 1.0. Always learning and improving. That's a good feeling, I haven't had that in years since web became the convoluted mess it is now.

SwiftUI is really easy to get going on and I am learning really a lot. You know, when I was a kid I wanted to be a programmer like my dad (he worked a lot more on things like Fortran, Cobol, C... in his era, and very little in this web era), but as I grew up, my interest was more on the design side of the things and less on programming, so I became a web designer, then frontend web dev, and now a UI/UX designer. I learned HTML, CSS, then struggled through JS and jQuery and so on in an adventure that started around 1998 when I was a young man. When Web 2.0 came up, a lot of my interest on it vanished.

I was working on "semi-automatic mode", with literally no joy in coding web pages and designing them with tools and frameworks I never wanted to work with and ultimately ended being a hot mess (I had to work with other developers, was never a solo flight, and most of them don't actually care about the right way to do it; as long as it works and they're being paid at the end of the day, they don't care). I had one LMS product we developed, where it could clean its cache, when it was fully native with no modifications before we begin developing it, cache was cleaned almost instantaneously. After throwing a lot of mods on it, guess what it now takes eternal minutes to clean it up. Depressing to see it and not being able to do anything to change it, because it doesnt depend entirely of me to do something about.

Now after the work shift, I spend a few hours learning SwiftUI and having a lot of fun with it. Maybe one day I can leave my current work and find another where I could work doing native apps (well, I can also learn to code for Windows and even Linux, I am not entirely tied to one platform to develop, even though Apple is my primary target, but I dont want to work with the cross-plaform garbage - like Electron, for example - that does have disadvantages in one or another platform; I'd rather use native solutions for each one). And maybe one day, I can dream of the day when JS is killed like Flash was, and the web becomes great again to work with it, then I could go back to it with the same joy and excitement I had when I began my career.

Meanwhile, the web as it is now - full of web apps, JS frameworks all over the place, React, Vue, Angular... Is not where I want to be or work with. You can call me old fashioned if you want, I won't deny the fact that I do love the simple, basic, HTML and CSS duo. Afterall, I am a designer, not exactly a programmer; but JS is one of the requirements for a web dev, unfortunately. After 2 decades in this career, I can't even properly code something in JS yet alone jQuery. But if you ask me something about HTML, design, or even CSS, I'll come up with a swiss-army knife of solutions for you, collected through 20 years of experience doing web sites for all types of business.

As for React, its nice to see the final product working and looking shiny, but if I look under the hood, I'll be terrified to see the hot mess it is; so I prefer not to look... or look on Activity Monitor (or Task Manager for the Windows ppl) the RAM usage...

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 18 of 33, by King_Corduroy

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Well apparently I'm not the only one who's feeling this way. I was just coming back here to say "anyone feel like the internet these days is just Bad news, sponsored content creators, and filler content on ad revenue pages these days?" Everything feels so stale and dead. I really miss how things felt 10 years ago or even before then. Even Linux has all become just forks of Ubuntu practically. It's just sad.

I honestly hope this all comes crashing down as well, this is getting downright dystopian.

Check me out at Transcendental Airwaves on Youtube! Fast-food sucks!

Reply 19 of 33, by schmatzler

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Bruninho wrote on 2023-07-01, 03:37:

I for the same reason you prefer React, I prefer to learn SwiftUI to work with the Apple environment only, I never had a good experience with Android, so yea I get your point and reason, but I dont want to try again, hence why at work I am the only one who doesnt test or develop anything on Android.

I guess I'm the complete opposite of you. 😀 I am interested in Android development (the much bigger marketshare here in Europe, so it's an easy choice), but I don't want to work on iOS apps natively. Why would I learn a programming language for something that I personally don't use and is not used by the majority of people living here...that just feels like wasted lifetime.
I guess it would pay well, but make me miserable at the same time.

Web Development is a shitshow anyway. Every one to two years there are new and "exciting" tools someone invented and suddenly, this is now the "hot thing" to do, everything else is getting obsolete. You get paid like an intern here (especially in webdev) but you're supposed to know React, Swift, Angular, jQuery, ES6, sass, NodeJS and a gazillion other things. If I decided to learn all of these, my weekends would be gone. This is not how I want to spend the best years of my life. So I'm just learning the things that I think will be useful and are here to stay for a pretty long time.

We're in a world where coding gets really easy for people just starting out, but at the same time, the projects get more and more complex. I get what you mean by saying

if I look under the hood, I'll be terrified to see the hot mess it is

I've come to accept that the new way of doing things is writing clean and well-structured code and then throwing it into webpack which puts out massive, completely unreadable .js and .css files. In the beginning this bothered me, because I also like to have control over my projects, but nobody works like that anymore and it makes everything just very tedious if you stick to the "old" approach. There is no profit in having well-structured code on your webserver and realistically, the project you've just built will be gone in 10 years anyway and by then, the tools you've used are obsolete. It's easy to not care anymore.

But if it was my decision, I would throw out Javascript as a language completely and do a complete, modern rewrite. There is so much old crap in there (like Prototypes) no one uses in 2023 anymore. The language has evolved massively and due to that, you have to learn all the quirks and things that might break. We need something else that is easier to learn, doesn't have all of these legacy issues and can be written in a clean way. It will never happen, though...

I had to work with other developers, was never a solo flight, and most of them don't actually care about the right way to do it

Code reviews are a godsend. Since I'm the most experienced webdev I have to sign-off on most of the changes at work. Sometimes when we get new colleagues, they are like you describe, they don't care and just write the hottest mess I've ever seen. I'm rejecting their code left and right, so they either have to work properly to get their code approved or they have to leave. If you want to throw var a and var b together in a 20.000 line file, you can do that somewhere else. 😂

King_Corduroy wrote on 2023-07-01, 07:58:

I was just coming back here to say "anyone feel like the internet these days is just Bad news, sponsored content creators, and filler content on ad revenue pages these days?"

I feel like UI/UX designof websites has evolved backwards when mobile devices started to get mainstream. Now you have a header and a burger menu on every website. Below that, there must be a really big image with a button on it.

If you have a product page where you advertise your product, it's fine, I guess. But this type of website with massive font sizes, big images and tons of whitespace is even used on sites where I actually want to find useful content.

Also, the whole SEO optimization industry has really killed our content. News outlets spread out their articles over multiple pages for that sweet ad revenue and texts often feel like written by a robot. If you want to find out the runtime of a new movie, you first have to skip over 50 lines of unrelated text mentioning the names of the actors 10 times so the page gets found by Google.

Google even admitted that their search results have been worse during the Reddit shutdown, because people only search with "site:reddit.com" to get useful results instead of using the crappy results from Google directly.

"Windows 98's natural state is locked up"