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Reply 240 of 434, by Jo22

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Personally, I've never been a fan about mass production or profit maximization.
Both are instruments for exploitation, I think.

I'm more comfortable with individualism, homebrewing and things that last for decades.
Even if that means that they're not super cheap and that I have to save money until I have enough together and I can buy them.

In my country, a bed or desk originally was expected to last among multiple generations.
And a quality product was handmade, usually.

My grand grand father had once built a tube radio to listen to AM broadcast radio.
He didn't "buy" a radio. He made it himself and was satisfied, and happy to have learnt something new. And that mindset wasn't too uncommon.

Back in these days, a lot of things were done in DIY fashion.
The houses were built from scratch, too.

A wooden chassis for a radio or any other purpose was being build by using a few wooden boards, a pencil and a jigsaw.

The founder of Bosch, a popular company for tools and appliances, is said to once have said "I'd rather loose money than trust".

Edit: And that's maybe why people bought IBM products back then.
"Big Blue" was a mean giant, maybe, but also produced things without compromises. Things that last.
All in all, it behaved very German here, I think.
It was no worse than Siemens, SAP, AEG or Bosch etc. It was a big company, with professionals as the primary customer base.
I think that's what it set apart from CBM the most, maybe (CBM: "We're making for the masses, not the classes").

And that's exactly the opposite to mainstream philosophy and super capitalism.
If you make good products without compromises, you'll keep having loyal customer base. Be it small or large, that doesn't matter so much.
(Just forget the nonsense told in economics. There's no infinite growth, resources are not endless.)

If they're professionals, they will pay a fair price for something their work depends on.
Because, their own life and that of others may depend on it (think of a drilling machine, a hammer, a welding machine, a chainsaw, a lab power supply, a quality measuring device/scope which depends on a separation transformer etc).

That's why, for example, my father, as a computer person working in IT, never was cheap on PC hardware/software.
It was the tool for his income, it simply had to be fully functional. It was an investment worth its money.
That's what it separated it from a game console or a home computer.
Or to quote a friend, a student, working in IT repair: "I'm too poor for bad tools!"

That's why, say, German cars still have a not so bad reputation, also.
Even the cheap cars produced for US market do still contain a minimum of quality.
They're rain proof, for example. 😉

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 241 of 434, by ThinkpadIL

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Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 18:09:

Personally, I've never been a fan about mass production or profit maximization.
Both are instruments for exploitation, I think.

I'm more comfortable with individualism, homebrewing and things that last for decades.

Exploitation, yeah, right. All those computerized plants with industrial robots and with tens of thousands of those miserable workers from South-East Asia who instead of hunting sparrows and earning nothing have to work for $15 per day. Of course it would be better them to die from starvation and those in Western countries to rise vegetables and to knit socks, to sell them on a local market and to save money for decades in order to buy something like this:

laptop_frontview.jpg
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So they could pass it to their great-grandchildren, who for sure will be glad to use them in 22nd and in 23rd centuries.

Go to hell capitalism, cost reduction and mass production! 🙂

Reply 242 of 434, by kant explain

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It's more about mass consumption then anything else. People like to have the latest and greatest whenever possible. We wouldn't have the advances in computer and electronics technology if it weren't for people's desire to have something new and zany. Or upggade from a previous model.

The Commie 64 in 1982. Without a dedicated monitor - 1000 us clams. Seems like a lot, but perhaps the cost was justified. They had to recoup their initial investment. And make a profit so other more advanced products could be produced. As stated, I paid 200-250 us for my 64c and 1541-ii. Wow did prices drop. And that nearly always seems to happen. There's no way my parents would have bought me a c64 system in 1982. But by 1986-89 I had my own money and could well afford it at it's reduced prices.

I have to be grateful for the pioneers who pay big bucks for the latest technology. I ain't one of them. I'm crafty and cheap. I bought an expensive computer once. Not likely to happen again.

People get tired of things. And that "build 'em like they used to" premise is sometimes a load of shit. Many moons ago at a job we had a broom. It weighed about 19 lbs. Eventually it broke, we all cheered. They bought a lightweight aluminum and plastic broom. But for certain idiots abusing it, it was well made enough. Then the boss in his infinite wisdom bought another 19 lb. broom. And it was horrible. And broke before very long. Maybe on purpose. Who knows.

The late 80s to mid 90s were the best years to buy an (American) car. I'm a Chevy/GM man. Anything I purchases in those years gave largely maintenance free service for about 200k miles. Not so much since. Newer technologies were utilized, widespread use of fuel injection for instance. Beautiful and simplistic. And computer controlled.

German cars, or specifically BMW, are said to be overly complicated and problematic. I had a used 320i when I was 19. It had it's issues, but I would like to say it was fairly reliable. It was fuel injected, 2 of them failed, $25 a piece. My 1989 Beretta's were over 100 initially but never gave a problem. I haven't put fuel injector cleaner in any cars since then. And only then because it was recommended. Gas is better, maybe, more detergents. Or the design is better. Or both.

I love history and can certainly see the value in old stuff. But I don't necessarily want a huge heavy desk around for decades. I don't want to spend the money either.

Reply 243 of 434, by kant explain

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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-10-05, 18:34:
Exploitation, yeah, right. All those computerized plants with industrial robots and with tens of thousands of those miserable wo […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 18:09:

Personally, I've never been a fan about mass production or profit maximization.
Both are instruments for exploitation, I think.

I'm more comfortable with individualism, homebrewing and things that last for decades.

Exploitation, yeah, right. All those computerized plants with industrial robots and with tens of thousands of those miserable workers from South-East Asia who instead of hunting sparrows and earning nothing have to work for $15 per day. Of course it would be better them to die from starvation and those in Western countries to rise vegetables and to knit socks, to sell them on a local market and to save money for decades in order to buy something like this:

laptop_frontview.jpg

So they could pass it to their great-grandchildren, who for sure will be glad to use them in 22nd and in 23rd centuries.

Go to hell capitalism, cost reduction and mass production! 🙂

🤣 🤣 🤣. You know there was an early COLOR laptop that looked just like that. Without all the wood. Man would that thing be amazing to own. And you wouldn't get a single splinter either!

Reply 244 of 434, by Jo22

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kant explain wrote on 2023-10-05, 18:48:

It's more about mass consumption then anything else. People like to have the latest and greatest whenever possible. We wouldn't have the advances in computer and electronics technology if it weren't for people's desire to have something new and zany. Or upggade from a previous model.

I think different. It were people at research, at university etc who had invented fundamental things.
Or creative people at tech companies, though they had owed their knowledge to free education.
Schools, universities, social institutions.
If capitalism/economic thinking was at work here, they wouldn't have been considered being worth to be teached in first place.

Also, it were creative individuals who defined the microelectronics era of the 1970s.
Radio amateurs, students and electronic hobbyists laid the foundations for an Apple II or a C64. Individualists. Humans. Not mass production/economy/capitalism. Rather contrary, microprocessors were being laughed at, originally. It were non-commercial intensions that made things happen, originally.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-10-05, 18:34:

Exploitation, yeah, right. All those computerized plants with industrial robots and with tens of thousands of those miserable workers from South-East Asia who instead of hunting sparrows and earning nothing have to work for $15 per day. Of course it would be better them to die from starvation and those in Western countries to rise vegetables and to knit socks, to sell them on a local market and to save money for decades in order to buy something like this [..]

Reminds me of the suicides at Foxconn, an IT company.
Employees were so depressed they jumped off the roof.

https://www.wired.com/2011/02/ff-joelinchina/

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-10-05, 18:34:

Go to hell capitalism, cost reduction and mass production! 🙂

Indeed. In my country we don't have the US model, because it's too cruel. Here, we're not having that "hire and fire" mentality, thank God.
We're rather using the rhine-model, which tries to be more humane. Well, it tries at least. Still a lot to improve here.

Economy in its principle is the culprit.
Millennia of human history worked without it, creating 7 world wonders such as the pyramids or the great library of Alexandria.

Now people waste their life time spending in a factory, just to be suddenly fired and then forgotten.
Or, we're producing cars and food for the dumpsters.
A lot of food is being destroyed, because capitalist companies rather destroy it than give it to the poor and ill.
It's less costly, simply. If they'd give it out for free, they'd have to pay taxes.

Or let's think about tipping in the US.
Waiters expect to be tipped a certain percentage, because the restaurant boss doesn't pay them properly.
In the rest of the world, this is unthinkable.
Tipping is either seen as a free gesture of appreciation or forbidden/an affront (Asia/Japan etc).

Anyway, a lot of things is wrong in the first world.
China companies can produce quality products, but isn't allowed, because western companies want them to produce as cheap as possible.

In school, we learned about how monocultures in agriculture leads to erosion of land, rendering it dead.
Mass production, capitalism and globalization are big part of it.

We're exploitating this planet, because of silly concepts such as economy.
A hundred years of industrialization have hurt this planet more than a hundred of thousands of years of human history did before.

Edit: My apologies for going a bit off-topic here, I got carried away a bit. 😔
I'll stop further going in that direction here now..

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 245 of 434, by kant explain

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A tip is part of the meal. It's just another way of looking at things. The owner would charge more money for food if he had to pay servers more it's that simple. I've told in certain countries (western europe) service can be very rude. The server doesn't have to worry what the patrons think of their attitude.

The planet. We or should I say corporations largely do abuse the planet somewhat. But I don't buy into the global warming craze/bullshit. Such beliefs are most popular in heavily socialized places. People need to wage holy wars, need something to complain about.

A number of those 7 wonders were accomplished on the backs of slaves remember. Perhaps all of them. It's been said by some that pripr to 200 years ago give or take all of mankind lived in a some form of slavery. People always want to look at the past and say how rosey it was. I just watched a documentary about Charlemagne. The first Holy Roman Emperor. What a fucking prick! But someone else would likely have committed atrocities if not for him in those days. It seems tje medieval Europeams were a hell of a lot less brutal, if you can believe it, then the Islamics and various Oriental peoples. For what it's worth.

Everything needs brakes. The problem we have here in the US is unlimited terms for various political positions. And hence they remain slaves of various special interests. Politics is complicated though. If it were too simplistic you'd have situations like there were in Germany in the 1930s.

Reply 246 of 434, by Scali

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Interesting that some people draw this into economics and capitalism.
I was looking at it from an engineering standpoint (as I said, some designs are 'overengineered').
I am an engineer by trade, and I am always interested in optimizing designs, less is more and all that.

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 247 of 434, by Jo22

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Sorry about that, but Commodore's favorite slogan touched the topic. 🤷‍♂️
"“Computers for the masses, not the classes."

To my understanding, that's all about focusing on affordable mass production and be proud about it, even.

Masses= the people, most prominently the large worker class; lower/middle caste

Classes= professionals, business men, government personnel, higher caste

Especially the C64 is affected, it was mass produced the most, for about 10 years.
Like the original Gameboy by Nintendo.

It's literally a symbol for mass production, factory work and whole families gathering around a TV screen with a little breadbox.

By contrast, the Amiga was made after mister Tram. left Commodore (the mister who mafe thst bold statement originally).

Edit: Perhaps that's just me, but the term "masses" has a negative vibe here.

It's dehumanizing the foremost, it's not about "people", but "masses". As in "the crowd", "dumb animals", "consumers".

This brings back bad memories of WW2 in school class, in which millions of brain dead people (the mass, the crowd) followed a leader, without thinking for themselves.

Considering mister T.'s biography, that hits even harder.
Something like WW2 should never happen again. People are encouraged to think on their own, questioning themselves and the society they're part of.

Edit: Back in WW2, the worker party and mass production were a big part of the warefare.
Likewise, Red October Revolution did something similar. Worker uprise (Bolshevik), dead, subsequent loss of culture and art, rise of communism..

Edit: Something else, something positive. The term "serial production" is a nicer term to "mass production", maybe.
A series can be made in different ways, after all. It's not bound to a specific approach, it doesn't have to be monotonous work at the assembly line.
In addition, a "small serial production" exists, too, for example, usually done by hand.
In a series production, multiple appliances of same type can be built, for example.

Last edited by Jo22 on 2023-10-05, 22:00. Edited 3 times in total.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 248 of 434, by Scali

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Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 19:49:

To my understanding, that's all about focusing on affordable mass production and be proud about it, even.

Masses= the people, most prominently the large worker class; lower/middle caste

Classes= professionals, business men, government personnel, higher caste

Yes, but how is that a bad thing?
The Commodore 64 is to computers what the Model T was for cars: it made computers affordable for everyone.
Heck, instead of capitalism, you can also see a hint of socialism in there: it's "for the people", the proletariat, not just the bourgeoisie.

http://scalibq.wordpress.com/just-keeping-it- … ro-programming/

Reply 249 of 434, by Jo22

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^I agree with "the people" or "the citizens" being fine.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 250 of 434, by kant explain

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Capitalism, when done responsibly, is all about the people. People often conflate capitalism with an unbridled laissez faire type of capitalism.

Certain pundits have coined the term corporatist. You can be a capitalist without being a corporatist. The latter being a sort of idiot, lock step, boot licking type of capitalist. I've been a republican all my life. I wore a Spiro Agnew t-shirt when I was 4! 😀 That took guts. I started listening to primarily NY talk radio when I was 25. Agreed most of the time (and at times I shouldn't have). But very early on I had some serious disagreements with what I was hearing. Meanwhile friends were saying things like "My boss is supposed to pay me as little as possible!". All you could do is shake your head. In pity. And say a silent prayer.

Reply 252 of 434, by kant explain

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Well as a result of this thread, I'm giving serious consideration to buying a Minimig or something. Ok not precisely on topic. But oh well. Every topic eventually faces exhaustion. The 64 though, amongst all the computers that ever were produced will emcourage discussion of various issues that were discussed here. Sorry if that bothers you. But it happens.

I'll do what I can. Hey, how about the C64 version of Alien Syndrome. It runs better then the arcade version imo.

Reply 253 of 434, by Jo22

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Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-10-05, 22:33:

What the hell happened to this discussion? Somehow a topic about different fan bases evolved into a discussion of communism and capitalism.

Nah, don't worry, it didn't escalate.
My apologies also for drifting off a bit. 😅

Though, there are historical connections between industrialization, volume production, war etc.

And especially the latter is something to go through history class in a German school life multiple times.
The whole "machinery" was based on large production capacity, so to say.
So it's just natural that this relationship comes to mind.

To give an idea, have a look at this French cartoon from ~1982, when home computers were the current gen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D51EO74Qz6s&t=490

It describes the crazyness of unrestricted consumption in a very direct way.
And it's something we watched in school, too.
Especially the spin-off series about human body in biology class.

Edit: Bottom line. And then there's something else, that's perhaps also important in the context.
Germany was split into two, East and West, each following a different doctrine/model.
Living in either country meant that in daily life there was always some model competing against each other.
So there was a comparison of some sort going on.

With the fall of the USSR, this rivalry ended. Thus, the dominating model is nolonger being questioned. It's taken for granted.
And that's worrying, because no change for the better can happen.
There's no competitor. Imagine an economic market without any competitors attending it..

__
Anyway, back on topic, you're right.
Um, how about the C64 in the media?

I've seen it as a prop in at least one Episode of Macgyver.
It also appeared in multiple other popular shows, of course.

This site has quite a few screenshots. ^^
https://www.starringthecomputer.com/computer.html?c=66

Edit: Browsing through these pictures I noticed quite a few Commodore 1701/1702 models.. Fascinating. I didn't assume it was that popular back then.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 254 of 434, by Jo22

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Speaking of media, another positive thing comes to mind..

Not so long ago, the fictional game "Fix It Felix Jr." from the Wreck-It Ralph animated movie had been recreated on C64.

I played it a few times on my real C64 and it's quite playable.
So all in all, the C64 lovers were quite passionate and committed here, indeed.

Creating something that was to be supposed to be an arcade title on a C64 is quite an accomplishment, I think.

https://www.indieretronews.com/2023/05/fix-it … t-from.html?m=1

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 255 of 434, by ThinkpadIL

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Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-10-05, 22:33:

What the hell happened to this discussion? Somehow a topic about different fan bases evolved into a discussion of communism and capitalism.

Speaking of communism I can only say that commies didn't manage to clone the Commodore 64. 🙂

Reply 256 of 434, by rmay635703

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ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-10-06, 09:01:
Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-10-05, 22:33:

What the hell happened to this discussion? Somehow a topic about different fan bases evolved into a discussion of communism and capitalism.

Speaking of communism I can only say that commies didn't manage to clone the Commodore 64. 🙂

It was cheaper to buy commodores failed line of systems in the plus4 family

Commodore 16

Reply 257 of 434, by AppleSauce

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Geeze why do Commodore threads always have devolve into giant philosophical what if dumpster fires ,
the amount of mile long threads I've seen on English Amiga Board that turn into petty arguing for example gets a bit mental ,
maybe its a good thing that pcs are more boring and people are less passionate about them,
maybe that way we can avoid these kinds of endless debate rabbit holes and actually discuss the hardware and software 😆

Reply 258 of 434, by Gmlb256

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I have stopped following this thread when it degraded days ago. 😜

Went from the OP talking about why C64 fans were more passionate around real hardware, then about hardware specs between platforms (which is fine when it isn't very long and boring, I'm being guilty of barely participating with two posts) and now with politics being dragged into the discussion which IMHO feels detracting in general.

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