mockingbird wrote on 2024-01-04, 18:20:

8-bit guy is an example of what not to do (I am picking on 8-bit guy but I actually have no real issues with him)... From repairing hardware, to videos on packaging his software, to a new computer release (Commander X16), solar panels, opening a new arcade... What is this, a retro channel, or a mid-life crisis spending spree supported by the donations on Patreon from the unwashed masses?

This is where creators typically would (or should) create secondary channels for other projects or interests. That way people can subscribe to the content they want without having a bunch of off-topic videos cluttering up things.

Having just watched his update video, he also hasn't really evolved with the platform. He talks about revenues being down, but things have shifted to different revenue streams.

I know some folks have here have complained about some creators moving to livestreaming or other changes, but that's the reality of these evolving media platforms. Creators that want to continue to thrive need to evolve and adapt as well.

midicollector wrote on 2024-01-05, 00:09:

Something about this kind of criticism of YouTubers or creators just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. […]
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Something about this kind of criticism of YouTubers or creators just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

If you don’t like content then don’t watch it. The YouTuber doesn’t owe you anything, it feels really entitled and self centered to act all high and mighty like some offense has been committed against you because you didn’t like a video someone made.

No one has to make videos that you like. There’s something really childish about complaining that someone else isn’t making a thing specifically to entertain you. I’ve encountered this kind of entitled feeling a lot and I hate it a little more every time it happens. This is why we can’t have nice things.

And if you want to criticize videos in this way then realize that people like me are also going to feel free to criticize you for doing so.

First of all it's a pity that my humble thoughts expressed in this forum left a bad taste in your mouth.

But when I read something like "If you don’t like content then don’t watch it. The YouTuber doesn’t owe you anything" I understand that you're missing something fundamental. There is a big difference between hobbyist that just shoots on a camera his experiments or talks about his hobby and someone like LGR or The 8-Bit Guy who integrates ads in his videos, asks you to like / subscribe / comment, to come back and watch his other videos, and so on. Latters not only monetize my time spent on watching their videos, but they want even more of it. And in this case I have a fair right to expect them meeting my expectations. Especially when one of them starts whining that I spend not enough time on his videos and thus forcing him to find another job. In other words, for those youtubers my time is money and youtubing is their job and me and Youtube actually are their employers. And as one of their employers I'm in full right not only to fire them by stopping watching their videos, as you propose, but also to expect them meeting my expectations.

Think about it.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 06:35:

First of all it's a pity that my humble thoughts expressed in this forum left a bad taste in your mouth. […]
Show full quote

midicollector wrote on 2024-01-05, 00:09:

Something about this kind of criticism of YouTubers or creators just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. […]
Show full quote

Something about this kind of criticism of YouTubers or creators just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

If you don’t like content then don’t watch it. The YouTuber doesn’t owe you anything, it feels really entitled and self centered to act all high and mighty like some offense has been committed against you because you didn’t like a video someone made.

No one has to make videos that you like. There’s something really childish about complaining that someone else isn’t making a thing specifically to entertain you. I’ve encountered this kind of entitled feeling a lot and I hate it a little more every time it happens. This is why we can’t have nice things.

And if you want to criticize videos in this way then realize that people like me are also going to feel free to criticize you for doing so.

First of all it's a pity that my humble thoughts expressed in this forum left a bad taste in your mouth.

But when I read something like "If you don’t like content then don’t watch it. The YouTuber doesn’t owe you anything" I understand that you're missing something fundamental. There is a big difference between hobbyist that just shoots on a camera his experiments or talks about his hobby and someone like LGR or The 8-Bit Guy who integrates ads in his videos, asks you to like / subscribe / comment, to come back and watch his other videos, and so on. Latter not only monetize my time spent on watching their videos, but they want even more of it. And in this case I have a fair right to expect them meeting my expectations. Especially when one of them starts whining that I spend not enough time on his videos and thus forcing him to find another job. In other words, for those youtubers my time is money and youtubing is their job and me and Youtube actually are their employers. And as one of their employers I'm in full right not only to fire them by stopping watching their videos, as you propose, but also to expect them meeting my expectations.

Think about it.

You're describing a consumer not an employer. Tv companies run ads, but tv viewers aren't considered their employers. A single viewer can't fire a tv host as described in your example, but the parent company can. The big YouTube channels have millions of viewers who often have different preferences, so a single person can't expect the creator to cater to their expectations. It would be impossible because your expectations will differ from others. On the other hand, an employer can demand changes because they will try to ascertain what the majority of the viewers want.

By all means, we should feel free to share our opinions. Some people will share our opinions and others will disagree, but if people are polite, it can be an enjoyable discussion. I don't think you'll be very happy if you approach watching YouTube as an employer/employee relationship.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-01-05, 06:01:

mockingbird wrote on 2024-01-04, 18:20:

8-bit guy is an example of what not to do (I am picking on 8-bit guy but I actually have no real issues with him)... From repairing hardware, to videos on packaging his software, to a new computer release (Commander X16), solar panels, opening a new arcade... What is this, a retro channel, or a mid-life crisis spending spree supported by the donations on Patreon from the unwashed masses?

I know some folks have here have complained about some creators moving to livestreaming or other changes, but that's the reality of these evolving media platforms. Creators that want to continue to thrive need to evolve and adapt as well.

I think this may backfire in the long run. After building a large audience through scripted videos, it makes sense that a YouTuber would focus more on livestreams because they are easier to make and the super chats bring in money. However, I'm not sure if that will be sustainable over the long-term. There's only so many hours in the day and most people don't have the time to sit through multiple hours long livestreams from different creators. I would expect this business model to be similar to mobile games, where only a small minority of the audience is actually paying the bills. If that paying audience loses interest over time, your revenue stream will start drying up and there's no guarantee that going back to scripted videos will be as successfully the second time around.

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2024-01-05, 07:44:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 06:35:

First of all it's a pity that my humble thoughts expressed in this forum left a bad taste in your mouth. […]
Show full quote

midicollector wrote on 2024-01-05, 00:09:

Something about this kind of criticism of YouTubers or creators just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. […]
Show full quote

Something about this kind of criticism of YouTubers or creators just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

If you don’t like content then don’t watch it. The YouTuber doesn’t owe you anything, it feels really entitled and self centered to act all high and mighty like some offense has been committed against you because you didn’t like a video someone made.

No one has to make videos that you like. There’s something really childish about complaining that someone else isn’t making a thing specifically to entertain you. I’ve encountered this kind of entitled feeling a lot and I hate it a little more every time it happens. This is why we can’t have nice things.

And if you want to criticize videos in this way then realize that people like me are also going to feel free to criticize you for doing so.

First of all it's a pity that my humble thoughts expressed in this forum left a bad taste in your mouth.

But when I read something like "If you don’t like content then don’t watch it. The YouTuber doesn’t owe you anything" I understand that you're missing something fundamental. There is a big difference between hobbyist that just shoots on a camera his experiments or talks about his hobby and someone like LGR or The 8-Bit Guy who integrates ads in his videos, asks you to like / subscribe / comment, to come back and watch his other videos, and so on. Latter not only monetize my time spent on watching their videos, but they want even more of it. And in this case I have a fair right to expect them meeting my expectations. Especially when one of them starts whining that I spend not enough time on his videos and thus forcing him to find another job. In other words, for those youtubers my time is money and youtubing is their job and me and Youtube actually are their employers. And as one of their employers I'm in full right not only to fire them by stopping watching their videos, as you propose, but also to expect them meeting my expectations.

Think about it.

You're describing a consumer not an employer. Tv companies run ads, but tv viewers aren't considered their employers. A single viewer can't fire a tv host as described in your example, but the parent company can. The big YouTube channels have millions of viewers who often have different preferences, so a single person can't expect the creator to cater to their expectations. It would be impossible because your expectations will differ from others. On the other hand, an employer can demand changes because they will try to ascertain what the majority of the viewers want.

By all means, we should feel free to share our opinions. Some people will share our opinions and others will disagree, but if people are polite, it can be an enjoyable discussion. I don't think you'll be very happy if you approach watching YouTube as an employer/employee relationship.

Describe it as you wish, but the point remains the same, they want my time, my time for them equals money, so they want my money. And as long as they want my money and the more the better, I'm in full right to expect them meeting my expectation. And if you do not value your time it is your right.

And regarding "watching YouTube as an employer/employee relationship" I personally feel quite happy with this kind of relationship especially when YouTube and some youtubers want my time (and in this case time=money) and as much of it as possible.

And if I see some youtuber as my employee it by no means doesn't mean that I do not respect him or what he does. I also respect you and I have nothing against the fact that you think differently.

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-01-04, 11:47:

There is only so much to tell about retro stuff.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-01-04, 19:23:

The problem with trying to do retro content from a specific time period is there is only so much retro "stuff" from that period to talk about.

Malik wrote on 2024-01-05, 00:02:

But you can only cover so much of something that have stopped production.

While the above is certainly a fact, it's also the way a topic is covered and that's what personally bothers me the most. Let me try to explain what I mean:

Ιt's true that I won't click on yet another Doom or 3dfx review, but sometimes youtubers come up with a topic that's not abused. Random example (not) someone decides to do a video on flash games. He's not the first but it's also not Doom, this topic hadn't appeared in my feed for a while, I click.

I expected a small research preceding the video, most important/popular games identified, interesting/historical facts mentioned, games properly displayed with editing as needed to maintain an "episode" flow. I got a streaming type of video with random mumbling, random scrolling and clicking around, a bunch of "yeah how cool is that"s, returning to the menu to look up the controls, and no (.)(.) to justify this style for a different audience. Now is this necessarily bad and can I really complain about it? No, the guys can do whatever they want and I can watch them or not.

But the zero effort trend - let me just film myself doing things and put a new video out (=quality degradation) is noticeable on many popular channels, which justifies this discussion.

I think the issue is over the pandemic retro PCs became as mainstream as retro consoles and now there is a wider, but perhaps shallower, audience. For instance I don't think we're gonna get a now relatively low quality "486 Build" style video (and subsequent series) again - maybe on his blurbs channel. This one is my favourite video of his.

The other issue is that the definition of retro expands with the times as more people become retro enthusiasts each year. My idea of retro is different to that of someone 10 years older than me. As above LGR needs to spread himself to capture as much of this as possible - so more likely to be videos older retro people are less interested in, compared to before.

LGR still pulls in pretty big views and he has 15 years of videos (and say 5 years of excellent quality videos) bringing in income. I can't see him needing to stop and get a """"real job"""" any time soon. His channel may slow down due to him not enjoying it as much and being forced to create videos with broader appeal to retro enthusiasts 10 years younger than him, that are not in his preferred area of retro computing. But I'm sure the channel overall will provide an income.

I feel like retro PCs is a hobby that mostly appeals to a certain demographic and doesn’t really get a lot of “new blood” (compared to consoles/handhelds, for example). People born in the late 90s and younger just don’t care about PCs the way older generations do.

Just take a look at Vogons — there used to be a lot of great build posts here all the time, now this is a lot less common (even if you consider many newcomers have flocked to /r/retrobattlestations). This is more or less a crowd of same people who eventually get bored from seeing the same “ultimate Win9x builds”. Some try to branch out into S478 and beyond, but those are just not that different from the computers we have these days, they are simply slower, don’t have a distinct aesthetic or obscure/interesting solutions.

I tend to get bored and stop watching certain people. I loved LGR for a long time and even loved his thrifting videos, but a time came when I found his videos boring and eventually stopped watching.
I used to love watching Chris Stuckman movie reviews, but one day I couldnt stand him anymore and I stopped watching. For retro videos, I dont follow anyone at the moment, but i noticed I have enjoyed people who are less polished and the sound isnt the best, the capture setup inst the best, but its fun to watch . Theres no flashy logo , theres no slick editing.... I like it though

One thing I noticed is that now even smaller retro channels have very good production values. By that I mean decent lighting, good audio, specialized tools like IR cameras, microscopes and so on. I'm really liking this development, and it's great to see people putting so much effort and care into their videos.

Personally, I just don't get the same enjoyment from content that was recorded on a shaky phone cam, in a dark room, with audio that sounds like it was processed on the original Sound Blaster from 1989. Even worse are people who capture 4:3 aspect ratio games using composite output and then stretch that blurry mess to 16:9 full screen and claim that is the genuine retro experience. Just no.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-05, 15:46:

One thing I noticed is that now even smaller retro channels have very good production values. By that I mean decent lighting, good audio, specialized tools like IR cameras, microscopes and so on. I'm really liking this development, and it's great to see people putting so much effort and care into their videos.

Personally, I just don't get the same enjoyment from content that was recorded on a shaky phone cam, in a dark room, with audio that sounds like it was processed on the original Sound Blaster from 1989. Even worse are people who capture 4:3 aspect ratio games using composite output and then stretch that blurry mess to 16:9 full screen and claim that is the genuine retro experience. Just no.

I think we have the invention of the iPhone and the multi-core x64 CPU ultimately to thank for this. Pretty easy to make it look good by spending only $10 for a phone tripod attachment these days and downloading some free editing software.

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2024-01-05, 07:56:

I think this may backfire in the long run. After building a large audience through scripted videos, it makes sense that a YouTuber would focus more on livestreams because they are easier to make and the super chats bring in money. However, I'm not sure if that will be sustainable over the long-term. There's only so many hours in the day and most people don't have the time to sit through multiple hours long livestreams from different creators. I would expect this business model to be similar to mobile games, where only a small minority of the audience is actually paying the bills. If that paying audience loses interest over time, your revenue stream will start drying up and there's no guarantee that going back to scripted videos will be as successfully the second time around.

For the record, I'm not suggesting completely replacing scripted videos with livestreaming. What I'm suggesting is more about diversification.

Because technology is constantly changing, online media platforms are constantly changing as well. Anyone wanting to make a business out of this needs to be able to adapt to these changes.

In watching his recent video, 8-bit Guy spends a lot of time talking about the things he either hasn't done or doesn't want to do in this regard. I'm not sure what other outcome one can expect from that.

jheronimus wrote on 2024-01-05, 15:23:

I feel like retro PCs is a hobby that mostly appeals to a certain demographic and doesn’t really get a lot of “new blood” (compared to consoles/handhelds, for example). People born in the late 90s and younger just don’t care about PCs the way older generations do.

Just take a look at Vogons — there used to be a lot of great build posts here all the time, now this is a lot less common (even if you consider many newcomers have flocked to /r/retrobattlestations). This is more or less a crowd of same people who eventually get bored from seeing the same “ultimate Win9x builds”. Some try to branch out into S478 and beyond, but those are just not that different from the computers we have these days, they are simply slower, don’t have a distinct aesthetic or obscure/interesting solutions.

I think it's not about age, but about this site orientation. It is mostly about vintage games unlike forum.vcfed.org for example. And today, when you have so many good emulators, you don't have to have a real hardware to be able to play old games.

And if talking about vintage hardware, for me a border between new and old runs along Windows 3.11. I see no much difference between Windows 95 and Windows 11 even though I understand that they are very different. So I'm personally interested in everything that is older than Windows 3.11, no matter did I use them in my childhood or not, I have zero nostalgia (and zero interest in gaming).

And if returning to the topic, I enjoy so much when I watch any review or historical documentary about some old system, for example there were few videos on CuriousMarc Youtube channel about restoring of the Apollo Guidance Computer. And frankly to say I'm very glad that is wasn't The 8-Bit Guy or LGR who was involved in it, cause former would surely limit himself to retrobrighting and maybe also to breaking or burning some important module, and latter would sit in a spacesuit trying to run Doom on it. So I can't agree with those claiming that there is no more vintage hardware to review, there are tons of them and in addition each one of them can be reviewed from so many different perspectives. In addition there is also an interview format which is almost not explored yet by youtubers. They for some unknown reason tend to display themselves instead of talking with people involved in development or use of those vintage computers, and there are so many of them still alive and for sure many of them would be happy to share their knowledge and experience.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-01-05, 16:44:

For the record, I'm not suggesting completely replacing scripted videos with livestreaming. What I'm suggesting is more about di […]
Show full quote

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2024-01-05, 07:56:

I think this may backfire in the long run. After building a large audience through scripted videos, it makes sense that a YouTuber would focus more on livestreams because they are easier to make and the super chats bring in money. However, I'm not sure if that will be sustainable over the long-term. There's only so many hours in the day and most people don't have the time to sit through multiple hours long livestreams from different creators. I would expect this business model to be similar to mobile games, where only a small minority of the audience is actually paying the bills. If that paying audience loses interest over time, your revenue stream will start drying up and there's no guarantee that going back to scripted videos will be as successfully the second time around.

For the record, I'm not suggesting completely replacing scripted videos with livestreaming. What I'm suggesting is more about diversification.

Because technology is constantly changing, online media platforms are constantly changing as well. Anyone wanting to make a business out of this needs to be able to adapt to these changes.

In watching his recent video, 8-bit Guy spends a lot of time talking about the things he either hasn't done or doesn't want to do in this regard. I'm not sure what other outcome one can expect from that.

I think we're operating on different wavelengths. My comments on livestreams have more to do with them replacing scripted content. I think that diversification is generally a good thing, but being a specialist with a more narrow focus can also have value. I've seen other channels try to diversify their content but mention that their new ideas didn't generate the views.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 18:13:

I think it's not about age, but about this site orientation. It is mostly about vintage games unlike forum.vcfed.org for example. And today, when you have so many good emulators, you don't have to have a real hardware to be able to play old games.

I joined the hobby about 8 years ago, and frankly I think emulation was good enough even back then. We got better OPL3 since then, maybe better Glide? Also a whole heap of great source ports that play better than emulation. So frankly I think building retro computers hasn’t been about running games for a very long time.

On a related note, it’s still weird I can’t remember many YouTube channels specifically about DOS games. Pixelmusement and… who else? LGR hasn’t done DOS games for a while now. Everyone else just talks about hardware.

jheronimus wrote on 2024-01-05, 19:00:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 18:13:

I think it's not about age, but about this site orientation. It is mostly about vintage games unlike forum.vcfed.org for example. And today, when you have so many good emulators, you don't have to have a real hardware to be able to play old games.

I joined the hobby about 8 years ago, and frankly I think emulation was good enough even back then. We got better OPL3 since then, maybe better Glide? Also a whole heap of great source ports that play better than emulation. So frankly I think building retro computers hasn’t been about running games for a very long time.

On a related note, it’s still weird I can’t remember many YouTube channels specifically about DOS games. Pixelmusement and… who else? LGR hasn’t done DOS games for a while now. Everyone else just talks about hardware.

Get off my lawn is another. Most of his videos are him firing up a game for the first time, but he also has really good scripted videos from time to time.

jheronimus wrote on 2024-01-05, 19:00:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 18:13:

I think it's not about age, but about this site orientation. It is mostly about vintage games unlike forum.vcfed.org for example. And today, when you have so many good emulators, you don't have to have a real hardware to be able to play old games.

I joined the hobby about 8 years ago, and frankly I think emulation was good enough even back then. We got better OPL3 since then, maybe better Glide? Also a whole heap of great source ports that play better than emulation. So frankly I think building retro computers hasn’t been about running games for a very long time.

On a related note, it’s still weird I can’t remember many YouTube channels specifically about DOS games. Pixelmusement and… who else? LGR hasn’t done DOS games for a while now. Everyone else just talks about hardware.

8 years? Wow. Quite a long time ago. I joined it somewhere in the middle of pandemic out of boredom. And Youtube channels played not the least role in my decision. Since then I purchased around one hundred or even more different vintage computers and I hope that like you I won't lose my interest in this hobby in the next few years.

Not exactly retro COMPUTing, but MattKC doesn't feel as exhausted as some others are (8 bit guy and LGR for instance). Maybe his steady approach is what keeps the content interesting. While specifically for LGR it has become a staple (and often gets boring to follow)

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:10:

Since then I purchased around one hundred or even more different vintage computers and I hope that like you I won't lose my interest in this hobby in the next few years.

Why so many?

One of the dangers of buying way too much "stuff" is it becomes less about the hobby and more about inventory management. That can lead to burn out.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:28:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:10:

Since then I purchased around one hundred or even more different vintage computers and I hope that like you I won't lose my interest in this hobby in the next few years.

Why so many?

One of the dangers of buying way too much "stuff" is it becomes less about the hobby and more about inventory management. That can lead to burn out.

Well, there are some forty or fifty more in my wishlist. And till now I wasn't aware that it is "many". Actually most of them are different modifications of the same model, like IBM Thinkpad 600, 600E and 600X, or different models in the same line of computers, like Sharp PC-1251, 1261, 1270, 1350, 1360, 1450, 1500, 1500A, 1501, G815, G830, G850VS. Some were bought accidentally cause they were coming with some other hardware I was looking for, like Brother PN-8500MDSe and Tandy 600. So today I find myself with around one hundred vintage computers and some few hundreds more peripheral devices, adapters, cables and other stuff for those computers.

And regarding inventory management I found long time ago a good solution that allows me almost effortlessly to keep all that stuff in order.

And what about you? Do you concentrate on some specific model?