FYI : https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/?standalone=1 109MB install file.

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-07, 17:40:

Then we have the Windows XP activation crap. I have two copies of that, one I can't use because the activation servers have been shut down (even though I paid money for it.) The other is running on an older Athlon which I would like to upgrade to a more modern board/CPU but cannot do that for the same reason

I'm not a fan of DRM that isn't patched out at a product's end of commercial life, but Windows XP can still be activated. I call the phone number given to activate the software without an Internet connection, and the Microsoft service sends me a text message with a link where I can enter the activation numbers online via my smartphone's browser. I was surprised that it still worked, but as of last fall it was still active!

This is indeed becoming more common for software not to fully install on your device, and yes large applications have to go through special internet based installer that can change anytime. And for many apps, they are just a browser to a website, so you never really have the actual application, at least permanently. This is why I am never going back to Windows, and have all my software through FOSS channels, saved on discs to be able to repeat and bring them up on demand. I have had times with no internet at all, and I can't imagine getting work done using vendors like Microsoft, Apple, or Google if I continue to use their ecosystem. Anything that cannot be preserved and brought back easily is pretty dangerous to rely on.

Although, I don't think this started with Half Life 1. I remember it came on CD. I think you a remembering something that came later, like Half Life 2 with steam, or some kind of much later re-release box. Yes valve was kind of one of the early pioneering experimenters with internet required platforms.

Nope. it was half life - but this was well past the original release date

MadMac_5 wrote on 2024-01-07, 18:27:

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-07, 17:40:

Then we have the Windows XP activation crap. I have two copies of that, one I can't use because the activation servers have been shut down (even though I paid money for it.) The other is running on an older Athlon which I would like to upgrade to a more modern board/CPU but cannot do that for the same reason

I'm not a fan of DRM that isn't patched out at a product's end of commercial life, but Windows XP can still be activated. I call the phone number given to activate the software without an Internet connection, and the Microsoft service sends me a text message with a link where I can enter the activation numbers online via my smartphone's browser. I was surprised that it still worked, but as of last fall it was still active!

XP.. There are different ways to, um, activate Windows XP. Including talking to a telephone computer via DTMF keys found on a land-line phone.
In the early days, there were volume licenses which didn't require extra work, too.
I can't go much into detail here, of course. I won't mentioning patches, either.

All I can say is that XP is/was somewhat to an upgrade to Win2k in several ways. GDI+, NTFS, Firewire 800, ClearType etc.
NTFS 3.1, for example, has "Expanded the Master File Table (MFT) entries with redundant MFT record number".
So it might be worth the extra hurdles (W2k was also popular in parts because it could be copied so easily and needed no activation yet.)

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-07, 17:40:

...you had to have an "account" plus internet service to use them....

One day that will happen to your smart Speaker... your car infotainment and your smart toaster...

A slight upgrad in wireless technology... a old technology dies... millions of devices can not even make a connection anymore... That sounds wild... Thats what happened to 3G and will happen to LTE.
And that is just one thing that can go wrong.
Imagine your car manufacturer thinks it is time to close the servers where your smart car gets its featrures from... No more monthly seat heating subscription... No... Product dead.

Incredible that we as customers allow that inbuild "smart" obsolescence and even praise it as something we really want...
Manufacturers have trained us really good...

I had a similar experience. I was waiting inside the mall for my wife to finish whatever she was doing and I was strolling around one of the retailers and found a copy of Rainbow Six: Extraction for PS4 in a bargain bin for a few bucks. I remembered Rainbow Six from a long time ago on PC so I picked it up. However to play it, you need a Ubisoft account and login or whatever... Thanks but no thanks, so from bargain bin into the trash bin.

I feel sorry for the current generation, everything they use is connected, and just like most of us, in 20/30 years from now they get nostalgic about the tech they used to use today. I am sure they can get their hands on it then but none of it would work as it all needs to connect to something that has long since disappeared.

pan069 wrote on 2024-01-09, 19:21:

I feel sorry for the current generation, everything they use is connected, and just like most of us, in 20/30 years from now they get nostalgic about the tech they used to use today. I am sure they can get their hands on it then but none of it would work as it all needs to connect to something that has long since disappeared.

This already happened to me 10 to 20 years ago.

- CompuServe and T-Online/BTX/Datex-J had closed (both online services)
- Datex-P service in my place no longer exists (Telekom had provided X.25 access)
- my Scall pager nolonger receives messages because the transmitters are gone
- AM broadcast radio on medium wave/shortwave has mostly gone
- the MIR has de-orbited in 2001, so no more Robot36 SSTV pictures to be received or conversations to be listened to
- ICQ nolonger is what it used to be. I miss ICQ5 and Slide a Lama
- the old internet for desktop PCs is gone in the western world, replaced by mobile internet
- Shoutcast network (WinAmp) nolonger exists in its original form, I miss those weird web radios and web TV stations from all over the world
- FAX is being exterminated everywhere for political reasons, without a replacement available (E-Mail is no alternative)

Edit: It's not exactly the same, maybe. But I do remember things that went away.
I'm just glad that FM radio still is around and that the DCF-77 time station still is on air.
So there's a little bit of independence from the internet, still.

Software aimed at the enterprise level is still fairly offline to get around strict internet filtering/policies or allow mass deployment.
As already mentioned, Windows XP and Office 2003 were the last that didn't require activation if you used a volume licenced copy.
Later versions allow you to install a KMS server basically an activation server on site, although that doesn't really help us today.

browsers and other software often offer a "offline installer" like the chrome one linked above. I like to keep copies of the final browsers for different OS's just in case.

I don't mind the idea of subscription-based software if its at a discounted price.
20 years ago new games used to cost me $80 Aussie dollars, some AAA titles still cost this much on steam, I can't think of much else that hasn't gone up in price recently.
BUT I feel like you are renting the software more then owning it, somewhat like you used to borrow games from the video store for a week.

For myself though I don't use streaming services and prefer owning an offline copy. I don't like the idea of been stuck in the situation say where I own a game that runs on XP but Steam doesn't support XP so can't play that game on that PC anymore. You also have the situation recently with Warcraft and GTA where you are auto upgraded to a remaster if you like it or not (and many people don't)

but then I only own 2 games that are less then 10 years old now so hardly a regular customer in any format.

We already have things like Steamless, The Original Xbox community has got Xbox Live working again unofficially so would guess the community could do the same in the future work around if there is enough desire.

Slowly but surely we are returning to the times of dumb terminals when your device was connected to a supercomputer where all the magic was happening.

pan069 wrote on 2024-01-09, 19:21:

I feel sorry for the current generation, everything they use is connected, and just like most of us, in 20/30 years from now they get nostalgic about the tech they used to use today. I am sure they can get their hands on it then but none of it would work as it all needs to connect to something that has long since disappeared.

I don't feel sorry at all. I hope they will experience that as soon as possible. When I warn them that in a few years they will be fck'd when they want to replay their favorite games. I'm taken for an idiot boomer and they are hellbent on saying this internet dependent system is better. They have to experience getting fckd'd over to develop a resistance. And not just sometimes, but regularly. Stuff they care about has to shut down, they have to experience the loss that would have been avoidable.

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-01-10, 06:58:

pan069 wrote on 2024-01-09, 19:21:

I feel sorry for the current generation, everything they use is connected, and just like most of us, in 20/30 years from now they get nostalgic about the tech they used to use today. I am sure they can get their hands on it then but none of it would work as it all needs to connect to something that has long since disappeared.

I don't feel sorry at all. I hope they will experience that as soon as possible. When I warn them that in a few years they will be fck'd when they want to replay their favorite games. I'm taken for an idiot boomer and they are hellbent on saying this internet dependent system is better. They have to experience getting fckd'd over to develop a resistance. And not just sometimes, but regularly. Stuff they care about has to shut down, they have to experience the loss that would have been avoidable.

They will just take loss of access as granted, they do not know any better. Moreover they will not learn any better because they do not care about anything enough to form meaningful bonds - their whole lives are built upon consuming one-time experiences and sharing them. This generation is growing up without any sense of ownership (and privacy), their adult lives will be hell when they realize they need to own shit to actually live free. They think they can have their cake and eat it too, but the cake is a lie. I feel absolutely no pity for them, they are collectively insufferable.

appiah4 wrote on 2024-01-10, 07:39:

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-01-10, 06:58:

pan069 wrote on 2024-01-09, 19:21:

I feel sorry for the current generation, everything they use is connected, and just like most of us, in 20/30 years from now they get nostalgic about the tech they used to use today. I am sure they can get their hands on it then but none of it would work as it all needs to connect to something that has long since disappeared.

I don't feel sorry at all. I hope they will experience that as soon as possible. When I warn them that in a few years they will be fck'd when they want to replay their favorite games. I'm taken for an idiot boomer and they are hellbent on saying this internet dependent system is better. They have to experience getting fckd'd over to develop a resistance. And not just sometimes, but regularly. Stuff they care about has to shut down, they have to experience the loss that would have been avoidable.

They will just take loss of access as granted, they do not know any better. Moreover they will not learn any better because they do not care about anything enough to form meaningful bonds - their whole lives are built upon consuming one-time experiences and sharing them. This generation is growing up without any sense of ownership (and privacy), their adult lives will be hell when they realize they need to own shit to actually live free. They think they can have their cake and eat it too, but the cake is a lie. I feel absolutely no pity for them, they are collectively insufferable.

a fair point, the younger generation has been raised on streaming / dlc everything and are used to the idea that you have to be 'online' in order to use things. this extends well beyond computers/gaming/media, it will in time include self-drive ubers in place of cars for instance

the idea of owning something in such a way as being able to use it how you want was always tied to technology, if a company sold a record they just couldn't control anything after you bought it - but technology allows for more control over 'IP' and copyright. Things that used to be more practical with ownership (like having a car) will soon be seen as expensive, inflexible and wasteful. the popular "you will own nothing and you will be happy" isnt really a deliberate conspiracy by some cabal of secret powers, its just a consequence of technology.

the young generation are not to blame and probably wont do anything much to resist it and possibly not even see that such resistance is of any value to them, it may seem like the rantings of old out of touch folk

maybe their own nostalgia will be, if collectively strong enough, be turned into another online only service to access a subset of of the past, curated and processed for resale and re-consumption. in games that kind of happened with dlc of older platform games on new consoles really

Ownership is an illusion. You don't own even your own life. Everything in this world is temporary and any handmade product sooner or later will disintegrate and turn into dust from which it was produced.

And if talking about freedom, old style ownership is rather a slavery than freedom. If taking into account how much time and effort does it take to keep the stuff you own in a good working order, it seems more like it is your stuff that actually owns you.

Sounds a lot like Stockholm-syndrome to me... And a failure at parenting leaving the kids vulnerable to manipulation.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 09:16:

Ownership is an illusion. You don't own even your own life. Everything in this world is temporary and any handmade product sooner or later will disintegrate and turn into dust from which it was produced.

And if talking about freedom, old style ownership is rather a slavery than freedom. If taking into account how much time and effort does it take to keep the stuff you own in a good working order, it seems more like it is your stuff that actually owns you.

Nope.

appiah4 wrote on 2024-01-10, 10:16:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 09:16:

Ownership is an illusion. You don't own even your own life. Everything in this world is temporary and any handmade product sooner or later will disintegrate and turn into dust from which it was produced.

And if talking about freedom, old style ownership is rather a slavery than freedom. If taking into account how much time and effort does it take to keep the stuff you own in a good working order, it seems more like it is your stuff that actually owns you.

Nope.

🙂

This has turned into quite the discussion

This goes beyond computers. I work in higher ed, and am seeing this same thing in this push towards e-books. I am sorry, but for me something on a computer will NEVER be the same as a printed page. Furthermore, many of these e-books are only good for that year. So what happens when students get into an upper-division class and they want to refer back to their freshman book for something? Too bad, it's gone!

Another case in point - netflix. I recently was talking to someone who is on netflix and we were talking about three movies I have watched recently. Oh let me see if they have that. Oh, don't have it. Oh, don't have it,. Oh, don't gave it. Then what the #### good is it.

Al this sounds like a great way to control people. Controversial book or movie, just take it down. Read some news story on the internet, go back and look at it the next day and suddenly it's gone or changed. Nothing is permanent anymore.

To me, "owning" isn't so much about owning, but having a little personal library.
Back in the middle ages, kings and other members of higher society had owned books and documents (maps, star charts etc) too.
It wasn't so much about about possession, but knowledge and independence.

In the mountains and mines of our world, nations do store microfilms and other media for archival purposes.
They also use a longtime storage type of PDF file format, I believe.
It's these places that may survive if the internet eventually "forgets".

Edit: Found it, it's PDF/A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF/A