ncmark wrote on 2024-01-10, 13:16:

This has turned into quite the discussion […]
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This has turned into quite the discussion

This goes beyond computers. I work in higher ed, and am seeing this same thing in this push towards e-books. I am sorry, but for me something on a computer will NEVER be the same as a printed page. Furthermore, many of these e-books are only good for that year. So what happens when students get into an upper-division class and they want to refer back to their freshman book for something? Too bad, it's gone!

Another case in point - netflix. I recently was talking to someone who is on netflix and we were talking about three movies I have watched recently. Oh let me see if they have that. Oh, don't have it. Oh, don't have it,. Oh, don't gave it. Then what the #### good is it.

Al this sounds like a great way to control people. Controversial book or movie, just take it down. Read some news story on the internet, go back and look at it the next day and suddenly it's gone or changed. Nothing is permanent anymore.

Permanent? There is nothing permanent in this world.

Knowledge you've got in the 1st grade becomes in many aspects irrelevant even before you manage to finish your high school. Each printed book has lots of prints, revisions and editions. Each mass produced product may differ even from shift to shift. And if you ask me about books, I also like printed books, but only for reading or just to enjoy this format. Printed books are not good for work or study. PDF or any other digital format is way more convenient for these purposes since you can't keep in your pocket the whole library of printed books and to proceed a text search in matter of seconds or to share with others certain parts of the text.

And Netflix is not the only service of its kind, there are many others to use in addition, just like you subscribe to many different channels on Youtube.

As of AI, it's just another technological tool. It has zero chances against us humans since we are smarter and much more sophisticated than AI.

There may not be such a thing as permanently permanent, but some things are more permanent than others. The text inside the books I used in college has not changed. The code on a CD=ROM install disk does not change. When I turn on a computer not connected to the internet and subject to "updating" I am not going to suddenly find the menus changed.

Back to Netflix.....so what you are saying is that you would have to subscribe to multiple services at the same time. And how much is all that costing per month? And I should not have to have internet access, a router, and an account on some service just to be able to watch a movie. Forget that.

I used to be so pro-technology too. Back in school I was building computers and always upgrading them - more RAM, bigger hard-drive, faster CPU, better video card etc. I don't like what it has morphed into. We have become slaves to this.

I wonder how everyone will feel when you have to pay a monthly fee to Microsoft just to be able to use your computer? It's coming.

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-10, 15:11:

There may not be such a thing as permanently permanent, but some things are more permanent than others. The text inside the books I used in college has not changed. The code on a CD=ROM install disk does not change. When I turn on a computer not connected to the internet and subject to "updating" I am not going to suddenly find the menus changed.

You are right, some things last longer than others, but still there is no such thing as permanent in this world. And I agree with you it's annoying when programs update themselves without asking you, but in most cases there is a way to disable the auto update feature. Also this is how we ourselves are functioning - there are constant processes in our bodies that take place without asking us if we want them to occur or not. Life is a process, it is very dynamic and today's world we live in only follows the way things work in the nature. You can't stop it, you only are able to understand it and to adapt.

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-10, 15:11:

Back to Netflix.....so what you are saying is that you would have to subscribe to multiple services at the same time. And how much is all that costing per month? And I should not have to have internet access, a router, and an account on some service just to be able to watch a movie. Forget that.

Yes, if you want this and this and also that, you need to pay him, her and also to that guy with sunglasses. And if you want to cut your expenses and still be able to watch this and that, you need to find some creative way to do it, same way as everyone else does from single persons to international corporations.

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-10, 15:11:

I used to be so pro-technology too. Back in school I was building computers and always upgrading them - more RAM, bigger hard-drive, faster CPU, better video card etc. I don't like what it has morphed into. We have become slaves to this.

Well, it is how you feel. I personally use only what I need and when I have no choice but to use something new, I simply adapt without any drama, the same way as did our grandparents when they moved from horses to automobiles.

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-10, 15:12:

I wonder how everyone will feel when you have to pay a monthly fee to Microsoft just to be able to use your computer? It's coming.

Same way when I pay monthly fee for using my mobile phone.

You know, in my opinion the most important thing in one's live is to be happy. And in order to be happy you have to understand this world, accept it the way it is, adapt and to find the way to enjoy this wonderful life.

This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with it:

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-10, 13:16:

Another case in point - netflix. I recently was talking to someone who is on netflix and we were talking about three movies I have watched recently. Oh let me see if they have that. Oh, don't have it. Oh, don't have it,. Oh, don't gave it. Then what the #### good is it.

Al this sounds like a great way to control people. Controversial book or movie, just take it down. Read some news story on the internet, go back and look at it the next day and suddenly it's gone or changed. Nothing is permanent anymore.

rather than take it down, edit it. Edit the text in old online web references so it looks like it always was so, use AI to 're-shoot' scenes in old tv or movies thus changing dialog, facial expressions, backgrounds and perhaps even whole characters completely if is so happens an actor becomes an 'unperson'....

sounds silly and a bit conspiracy ish but it's possible and there is motivation to do this (and always has been, note the Satlin era: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/stalin-photo … tion-1922-1953/ , interesting and 'ahead of its time', imagine what is possible now)

this way nothing as obvious as removing needs to be done, its just replaced in situ and soon enough; "oh no, that wasn't in the film at all, you must have misremembered...."

on the plus side, there are so many printed media and dvds etc that its unlikely in near future anyway

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:08:

You know, in my opinion the most important thing in one's live is to be happy. And in order to be happy you have to understand this world, accept it the way it is, adapt and to find the way to enjoy this wonderful life.

Maybe it's because i recently replayed fallout 3: the pitt but i immediately thought of the character Adan (https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Adan), made me smile anyway 😀

appiah4 wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:15:

This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with […]
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This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with it:

gerry wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:25:

Maybe it's because i recently replayed fallout 3: the pitt but i immediately thought of the character Adan (https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Adan), made me smile anyway 😀

Since both of you didn't understand what I was trying to say, I guess it's me who wasn't clear enough.

What I was trying to say, when it's raining I accept the fact that it is how things work in the nature and I adapt by taking an umbrella instead of being angry at the sky, shouting "how dare you!"

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:08:

You are right, some things last longer than others, but still there is no such thing as permanent in this world. And I agree with you it's annoying when programs update themselves without asking you, but in most cases there is a way to disable the auto update feature. Also this is how we ourselves are functioning - there are constant processes in our bodies that take place without asking us if we want them to occur or not. Life is a process, it is very dynamic and today's world we live in only follows the way things work in the nature. You can't stop it, you only are able to understand it and to adapt.

And that way we age and die. Letting culture die is probably the worst kind of death because it's not just the death of a single person, but also the death of the people helped to build it.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:08:

Yes, if you want this and this and also that, you need to pay him, her and also to that guy with sunglasses. And if you want to cut your expenses and still be able to watch this and that, you need to find some creative way to do it, same way as everyone else does from single persons to international corporations.

Unless we are talking about a situation where all "creative ways" are cut off. That is difficult to achieve with passively consumed media, since it's easy to record and redistribute. Not everything is like that.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:08:

Well, it is how you feel. I personally use only what I need and when I have no choice but to use something new, I simply adapt without any drama, the same way as did our grandparents when they moved from horses to automobiles.

Don't take this as if I'm trying to chase you away, but what exactly are you looking for in this community? You know the one that centers around preservation.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:08:

Same way when I pay monthly fee for using my mobile phone.

That's the point, you don't. You pay for the phone and data service, but the hardware, the OS and the majority of the apps themselves are mostly perfectly functional without connection. Sure, you lose most means of long distance communication, but you don't lose the device and the access to the data on it.

There are things that are reasonable to function as a service, but if something can be a product, having the option is nice (and usually superior).

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:08:

You know, in my opinion the most important thing in one's live is to be happy. And in order to be happy you have to understand this world, accept it the way it is, adapt and to find the way to enjoy this wonderful life.

Some people are perfectly happy sleepwalking through life half-braindead. Other people have a hard time put up with bullshit, especially if they experienced the non-bullshit version. Sometimes it's the world that needs to be changed.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:42:

Since both of you didn't understand what I was trying to say, I guess it's me who wasn't clear enough.

What I was trying to say, when it's raining I accept the fact that it is how things work in the nature and I adapt by taking an umbrella instead of being angry at the sky, shouting "how dare you!"

People don't make it rain to make things worse for you. Cutting you off from ownership so certain people can make more money by offering you a worse product (a service in place of a product) however isn't a work of nature, doesn't happen by chance and shouldn't be accepted.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:42:

Since both of you didn't understand what I was trying to say, I guess it's me who wasn't clear enough. […]
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appiah4 wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:15:

This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with […]
Show full quote

This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with it:

gerry wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:25:

Maybe it's because i recently replayed fallout 3: the pitt but i immediately thought of the character Adan (https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Adan), made me smile anyway 😀

Since both of you didn't understand what I was trying to say, I guess it's me who wasn't clear enough.

What I was trying to say, when it's raining I accept the fact that it is how things work in the nature and I adapt by taking an umbrella instead of being angry at the sky, shouting "how dare you!"

i understood, but still thought of that character however 😀

though you seem now to be saying that the conscious chosen actions of other people is like an unchangeable aspect of nature, like rain?

i do see your point, there is little one person in 8 billion can do to make something change against a tidal force that is the sum of human actions around the globe. If that was the point.

i'm also no railing against it, more observing the inevitable development and there should be no problem in describing and stating it. If there is a personal 'umbrella' against it then it is in owning books, dvds and old computers - hardly a last great stand, but something one can personally do. Interestingly there is a small 'scene' around owning dvd and even vhs movies that is part inspired but just this kind of thinking - too small to change the world, but its something interesting

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:48:

That's the point, you don't. You pay for the phone and data service, but the hardware, the OS and the majority of the apps themselves are mostly perfectly functional without connection. Sure, you lose most means of long distance communication, but you don't lose the device and the access to the data on it.

Except if it's an iphone. But I digress..

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:48:

...

Well, it seems that we are simply too different. This is how life works, people are different and it is great!

Regarding this community and preservation, around three years ago I started collecting vintage computers and this forum was one of the first I found on Google when I was searching for information about vintage computers. And regarding preservation, I personally do not see it as a goal. I simply enjoy tinkering with vintage primitive computers, and It's not about nostalgia or gaming since I have zero nostalgia and I'm also not a gamer. Maybe in a future I will lose interest, but till then I'm planning to enjoy this hobby.

And if you'll ask me "why vintage computers?", I'll say that one of the main reasons is that for those computers time virtually has stopped. All the modifications, all the hardware, all the software and all the literature are already produced and you have a privilege of just picking some model and all related stuff without a need to wait for newer version or newer model. For me it is quite important cause I'm not an IT guy and my knowledge in programming and electronics is very limited. So old BASIC / CP/M and DOS machines for me are the perfect choice.

gerry wrote on 2024-01-10, 18:03:

... though you seem now to be saying that the conscious chosen actions of other people is like an unchangeable aspect of nature, […]
Show full quote

...
though you seem now to be saying that the conscious chosen actions of other people is like an unchangeable aspect of nature, like rain?

i do see your point, there is little one person in 8 billion can do to make something change against a tidal force that is the sum of human actions around the globe. If that was the point.

i'm also no railing against it, more observing the inevitable development and there should be no problem in describing and stating it. If there is a personal 'umbrella' against it then it is in owning books, dvds and old computers - hardly a last great stand, but something one can personally do. Interestingly there is a small 'scene' around owning dvd and even vhs movies that is part inspired but just this kind of thinking - too small to change the world, but its something interesting

Yes, that is what I'm talking about. And there is no much difference between the sum of human actions and a rain, since they both are parts of the nature.

Regarding a personal 'umbrella' against inevitable developments, I see things a bit differently. I personally don't care about preservation of those artefacts cause I don't care what will be after my life will end. On the other hand if someone from a new generation will want to buy those things from me when I'll lose interest to this hobby, in order to preserve them for his generation I'll have nothing against it. I have no desire for destruction. But if they will be lost during some accident I won't care at all. Our world would be a horrible place if everything from the past would exist today.

I think that graphic sums it up perfectly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

appiah4 wrote on 2024-01-10, 17:15:

This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with […]
Show full quote

This is a perfect illustrated summary of your 'be happy about accepting the way it is' outlook on life and everything wrong with it:

That sums it up perfectly!!!!!!!!

This might be getting into conspiracy land and it might not be. But, along with having to pay Micro$oft a monthly subscription fee for use of your computer. what happens when you HAVE to have it, because paying bills online will be the only way to do it.

It could happen.

Then the subscription prices goes from $50 a month to $100 to $150 to $200

ncmark wrote on 2024-01-11, 14:09:

This might be getting into conspiracy land and it might not be. But, along with having to pay Micro$oft a monthly subscription fee for use of your computer. what happens when you HAVE to have it, because paying bills online will be the only way to do it.

It could happen.

Then the subscription prices goes from $50 a month to $100 to $150 to $200

You don't have to use M$ operating systems. 90% of the Windows users were just as fine on anything else. My daily driver is untouched by Windows and it fulfills all my needs including modern gaming.

That's right, there's ReactOS as a replacement, for example.

I've been thinking with all these handheld PCs coming recently if there is a point forking ReacOS for a W98 compatible retro oriented handheld 😁

I'm afraid ReactOS is still useless.

ReactOS is more of a novelty than an actually viable OS. If anything, ecomstation as a modern OS/2 is probably the best way to go about setting up a modern DOS environment.

Actually, why don't I do just that and make a video out of it....