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First post, by keenmaster486

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I was reading this thread: a little retrospective

It reminded me of something I found out the other day:

The FCC recently stopped requiring telecom companies to maintain their POTS lines, or Plain Old Telephone Service.

This sent me into a rabbit hole reading stories from technicians online. Basically, they're not fixing those old copper lines when they go down any more. Whatever's there right now is all that's left. Some are taking steps to actively remove those lines.

The replacement service for businesses and home users is VoIP.

It will be a long time before those copper lines themselves are gone altogether, given the existence of DSL service over them, but the industry is inexorably moving towards total landline death, like a stumbling zombie chanting "must digitize".

When I was a kid, I used to dial wrong numbers on purpose to get the "this number is not in service" message. I tried doing that on my parents' landline recently: nothing. It gives you the busy signal. Sometimes it will make a different beeping noise, one I haven't heard before, if you dial enough 0's. I cannot get the system to react in the ways that it used to react. It's like it's been reduced to a barebones shell of its former self. The whole thing is run by digital switchboards, anyway, and chances are somewhere along the way my voice is converted into a stream of bits before being sent over the internet. If I make a local call to another landline, is the connection even purely analog any more? I doubt it.

The relevancy to this forum is this: the old analog telephone network was a fixture in the early days of computing and home computing, all the way up to the late dial-up era in the 2000s. People made calls for internet service, BBS connections, peer to peer modems, whatever you wanted to do... your telephone number was what your IP address is today, and it was all done with modems over a purely analog system that was a marvel of electromechanical engineering. This system is on its last legs, where it does still exist, and is no longer the marvel that it once was, given how dwarfed it has been in scope and bandwidth by the fiber-based global internet network, which is vastly more complex on a micro scale, if not on a macro scale, and more standardized. However, when it was actively maintained as the world's primary communications system, it was dead reliable.

I recommend this YouTube channel for a wealth of information on the old telephone network: https://www.youtube.com/@evandoorbell4278

Someday POTS will be gone in the form we know it today.

What are some ways that we can keep alive the types of fun experiences people had using it back in the day without the corporate and government sponsored network to ride on?

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 1 of 19, by DerBaum

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 20:41:

...is the connection even purely analog any more?...

I would say thats at least the case since 60 years.
The transition from pulse dailing to tone dailing began in 1963. from this point on there must be digital circuitry involved.

FCKGW-RHQQ2

Reply 2 of 19, by keenmaster486

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DerBaum wrote on 2024-01-09, 21:03:

I would say thats at least the case since 60 years.
The transition from pulse dailing to tone dailing began in 1963. from this point on there must be digital circuitry involved.

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the connection itself.

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 3 of 19, by DerBaum

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 21:48:
DerBaum wrote on 2024-01-09, 21:03:

I would say thats at least the case since 60 years.
The transition from pulse dailing to tone dailing began in 1963. from this point on there must be digital circuitry involved.

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the connection itself.

Oh ok.
Here in germany that point was 1997 when everything was completely digital and your analog device was just converted to digital and back to analog at the other end.

FCKGW-RHQQ2

Reply 4 of 19, by BitWrangler

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Yes it's quite some way back that main telecom backhauls and intercontinental lines were using multiplexing and hardware implemented lossless codecs of high quality for the time, but now we're into a lot of not quite so real time packet switched software dominated systems with more lag and artifacting. If you wanted to simulate calling the moon in the 80s you needed a lot of audio effects processing, if you want to simulate it in 2024 call your friend on a different network across town where each network have their main hubs in different large cites some miles distant.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 5 of 19, by the3dfxdude

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 20:41:
I was reading this thread: a little retrospective […]
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I was reading this thread: a little retrospective

It reminded me of something I found out the other day:

The FCC recently stopped requiring telecom companies to maintain their POTS lines, or Plain Old Telephone Service.

This sent me into a rabbit hole reading stories from technicians online. Basically, they're not fixing those old copper lines when they go down any more. Whatever's there right now is all that's left. Some are taking steps to actively remove those lines.

I have not heard this. However, I think I've seen the effects. Can you please share an article explaining that this happened for context?

Reply 6 of 19, by keenmaster486

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-01-10, 00:21:

I have not heard this. However, I think I've seen the effects. Can you please share an article explaining that this happened for context?

Here's one: https://www.nojitter.com/consultant-perspecti … quite-heres-why

World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 7 of 19, by appiah4

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I kind of find it scary that one day if we lose the internet for one reason or another we will pick up the phone and there will be nothing.. Aren't land lines an infrastructure woth keeping alive through government resources, if that is what it takes, as a kind of contingency for disaster scenarios? I really fail to see how a 100 year old infrastructure that represents a substantial fallback mechanism can be let go so easily...

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 8 of 19, by Disruptor

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 20:41:

Someday POTS will be gone in the form we know it today.

It is already gone.
If power fails in your city you at least could be sure that the phone lines still work - to call your parents or for emergency.

Nowadays you may rely on mobile phone backbone. Do you?

Reply 9 of 19, by Shagittarius

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appiah4 wrote on 2024-01-10, 18:32:

I kind of find it scary that one day if we lose the internet for one reason or another we will pick up the phone and there will be nothing.. Aren't land lines an infrastructure woth keeping alive through government resources, if that is what it takes, as a kind of contingency for disaster scenarios? I really fail to see how a 100 year old infrastructure that represents a substantial fallback mechanism can be let go so easily...

We live in a time of great hubris and privilege. Keep stacking (Motherboards).

Reply 10 of 19, by Shagittarius

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Disruptor wrote on 2024-01-10, 18:40:
It is already gone. If power fails in your city you at least could be sure that the phone lines still work - to call your parent […]
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keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 20:41:

Someday POTS will be gone in the form we know it today.

It is already gone.
If power fails in your city you at least could be sure that the phone lines still work - to call your parents or for emergency.

Nowadays you may rely on mobile phone backbone. Do you?

So many layers of fail. Most likely in a real emergency cell service will be done. However there are varying degrees of failure, in a functional system but with a run on the service all 3rd party provider subscribers will be unable to make calls as priority goes to first party subscribers. Its more expensive but if you are concerned about emergencies you should stick with first party providers.

Reply 11 of 19, by BitWrangler

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This is why I've got a CB and a router that can do MESH networking. 🤣

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 12 of 19, by appiah4

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Shagittarius wrote on 2024-01-10, 18:45:
Disruptor wrote on 2024-01-10, 18:40:
It is already gone. If power fails in your city you at least could be sure that the phone lines still work - to call your parent […]
Show full quote
keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 20:41:

Someday POTS will be gone in the form we know it today.

It is already gone.
If power fails in your city you at least could be sure that the phone lines still work - to call your parents or for emergency.

Nowadays you may rely on mobile phone backbone. Do you?

So many layers of fail. Most likely in a real emergency cell service will be done. However there are varying degrees of failure, in a functional system but with a run on the service all 3rd party provider subscribers will be unable to make calls as priority goes to first party subscribers. Its more expensive but if you are concerned about emergencies you should stick with first party providers.

As someone who lives in a high risk earthquake geography and survived several 7+ scale earthquakes, I know first hand that cellular infrastructures simply collapse and can not be brought back up to what can be called a functional state in a shorter timeframe than 'several days'..

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 13 of 19, by mtest001

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It does not even take a major earthquake... I went myself through several bombing incidents and every time the cellular network went belly up. I can only speculate that it comes from a combination of people trying to get in touch with relatives and priority access given to first responders and emergency services.

On a different note, many old school alarm systems rely on DTMF and will or will not work on a digital emulation of those, see this article: https://www.uctoday.com/unified-communication … l-way-iotcomms/

/me love my P200MMX@225 Mhz + Voodoo Banshee + SB Live! + Sound Canvas SC-55ST = unlimited joy !

Reply 15 of 19, by appiah4

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ncmark wrote on 2024-01-11, 14:04:

So basically, if I am understanding this correctly, I might not even be able to get a landline even if I wanted one?
Personally, I think this is a HUGE mistake

You can get a landline but it won't be using a traditional copper cable network infrastructure - it will be VOIP.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 16 of 19, by the3dfxdude

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ncmark wrote on 2024-01-11, 14:04:

So basically, if I am understanding this correctly, I might not even be able to get a landline even if I wanted one?
Personally, I think this is a HUGE mistake

I'm sure there are places that never had a landline. But even that, there are probably many places now that never had actual POTS. I think that what is more interesting, is the possibility that the POTS providers may be turning it off where there had been service. I have seen something where someone in a nearby area they got a notice that "equipment" is not being maintained or supported and if it shuts off, it may not return to service anymore. I was confused why I did not get a similar message from the same company, but I think it has to do with them pulling all support for POTS there for some reason. However, I see fiber being installed in the major road coming through all of us here, so it may just be a matter of time. But I find it concerning, considering some of their customers may be considered still out of reach because of cost in older neighborhoods, where there was only really service by copper by the telephone company.

It'll be interesting if fiber does actually arrive to the older homes before POTS is shut off. I think the notice really was just to convince people to leave now in an attempt to shutdown everything if they could.

Reply 17 of 19, by ElectroSoldier

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DerBaum wrote on 2024-01-09, 21:54:
keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-09, 21:48:
DerBaum wrote on 2024-01-09, 21:03:

I would say thats at least the case since 60 years.
The transition from pulse dailing to tone dailing began in 1963. from this point on there must be digital circuitry involved.

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the connection itself.

Oh ok.
Here in germany that point was 1997 when everything was completely digital and your analog device was just converted to digital and back to analog at the other end.

Was it that late in the 90s?

By 1998 the entire UK BT PSTN was digital.
56k wouldnt have been possible without digital networks.

In the UK once the amount of subscribers to any given exchange drops below a certain level then exchange drops its PSTN lines and converts all subscribers to IP based services.

I know very few people who still use the POTS now, they all use their mobile phones...

Not only will I not give up my PSTN I wont give up pulse dial either.
To the bitter end for me.

Reply 18 of 19, by chrismeyer6

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Where I love POTS is still very much alive and well. Our phone and DSL service are still served of copper straight from the VZ CO. Back in 2016 Verizon did a major copper overhaul in our town instead of running fiber for FiOS. I can't complain as our voice and data services are just rock solid reliable.

Reply 19 of 19, by the3dfxdude

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The funny thing is that there are brand new neighborhoods out here that probably in the last several years got their load of copper installed too. I'm sure they have very good quality DSL that is more reliable, consistent and still faster than wireless. And you can still get phone. It makes no sense to reduce the number of options! Anyway, fiber is now being laid pretty much everywhere up and down here. It's only a matter of time, but it helps none for the last mile reach program to be discarding things that could still be maintained. I still think people are going to be left out of decent broadband for years to come for their lack of caring.