VOGONS


Reply 180 of 191, by CwF

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Yes, past a few cores there is little gain, cooling is challenging if you actually use all the available power, which is hard if not impossible - BUT, with the bios control mentioned, and the realization your never going to get full throttle anyway - there is a way out!

First, disable HT. If you have a need for the cores, build in more! you cannot use all the cores you can have -speaking XP32 here. Where I use handbrake this is still true, though not XP32. Disabling HT is good for smoothness, and provides some clocking headroom, and gains a 10-15% thermal headroom. Again, we are re purposing 2nd hand here, we can afford the obvious blasphemy of literally castrating a formerly high end cpu...

Next, you don't have to run all the cores. Same thought as the HT, but a little more rude to the pride of a high end xeon. Most bios's on a 5500 series X8 will allow 1,2,3,4,5,6 cores per socket. Again, adjustable thermal advantage. My floppy mentioned XP is what I ended up with after building on X8's with linux, multiple X8DTHxxx variants. I bought a X8DTi to recycle cpu's and memory after I noticed the chipset drivers on the CD and did a test nlited XP install on a 7 slot dual 5520 beast (X8DTH-i) that came up clean, though not really useful. The X8DTi-F install was clean too (qd3nodrv.inf), and correct sata from boot, and offers the floppy port and PCI. With dual 5687's as 2 core it will run with supermicro 4 pipe coolers and 900-1200rpm quiet 4pin replacement fans almost silently. Also in the bios you can force a LOWER multiplier for 100% duty NON-turbo. This really help the thermals yet will not restrict full turbo speed, that will game 4@3.9Ghz all day without noise. It sports an AMD Sky 500 16lane 4GB ECC working at full capability on XP32, and also is passively cooled. The swap is part of the PAE ram drive, 20.99GB of the 24 installed, it has passed with 48GB, 24x4, triple channel, fastest is 6 dimms only for full 1333 speed iirc. I think PAE can handle 64GB.
Usually I run all 4(x2) cores, no HT, and 18 cmos ratio. That's 2.4 limit non turbo, and like I said that does not limit the turbo, it just limits the mid clock, so it holds 2.4, or pegs 3.9ish. not 3.6 as rated. I never hear it.
Turn on HT and compile a kernel with t-16 and you will hear the OH alarm in about 20-30 minutes when the sockets hit 96C. In the 'archival fun' configuration as explained the cpu's range in the 70-80's, as does the gpu. It's in a wide body tower from the 90's that once housed my P3TDe-6. I made the 80pin backplane, ripped it out, modded the front cage to clear the board, etc.

No to the special power supply, not an issue, it runs a miniATX 500w PS that does have a 24 pin but I needed to fake it on the extra cpu connections, One 4 pin in each 8 pin is good enough, again, it takes effort to actually load these things to their max and an XP32 can't come close. As configured I measured 288W at the wall with effort to do so, I recorded mid 90C cpus and 97C GPU - and QUIETLY! In real use that peak is rare. With Debian or some other proper 64 bit OS it could maybe melt...The lack of a rack of scsi drives makes a huge difference, no, I don't miss that 'genuine' mess.

My favorite to date for my general use is still X9's. I have a X9SRA for single tasking and a X9DAi (3 pci-e x16 gpu's)for server crunching. That X9D is in a 19" rack case I modded into my desk when it had a P6SGU or DGe something...also in the 90's, I still have an AT rear plate for it) Nothing has excited me since. Past favorites of the single cpu variety; C7Q67 (E3 Xeon modded) and X9SCV-Q run XP32 well. C2SBC-Q's were fantastic workhorses that could overclock some and should be very compatible for older OS's.

Fun!

I used to know what I was doing...

Reply 181 of 191, by CwF

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ruthan wrote on 2021-05-24, 01:35:

there is not place for 2 water coolers in 1 machine and some custom water cooling is complicated.

I forgot this part...maybe I made the case that Xeons can be turned into passive quiet over performers much easier than clocking their little brothers... I'm telling you, Xeons are better cpu's!

Anyway, in my past life I built many custom rigs. The most challenging factor with cooling is building for 12k+ altitudes. I even potted a few things, one big block of heat! I think water cooling sucks and is generally a bad idea. One thing that gets skipped with water cooling are the many hot spots that then get ignored. Chipsets of various purpose get hot too, vrm's, and often the largest power sucker and heat maker is memory (assuming Solid State storage). Water is simply a mess, and incomplete. Case airflow is paramount and more effective with all massive and passive coolers. There are also custom heat pipe kits that work well when combined with billet aluminum cases (at least one case wall). High dollar yes, but far superior to the point of silence!

So my 5687's run nearly silent and I don't think a few OC's Ghz make a lot of difference, especially when the stressed lesser option certainly isn't running silent!

I used to know what I was doing...

Reply 182 of 191, by ruthan

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Thanks, i checked all these boards, but there is every time something wrong for retro use.. One is PCI-E only and that one with PCI slots has bad slots placement.. so even if would accept complications with casing is not worth.

These make sense, if need cheap multicore performance first and some retro pc usage in second.. As i have other computers and want to invest money to build them, for me make sense make dedicated retro pc standalone were enough performance in more OSes is nice bonus and good for some backup pc / lan party etc.

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 183 of 191, by CwF

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ruthan wrote on 2020-06-17, 12:00:

Solution is probably replace it with AMD card - not tested yet, but it has some flaws. I personally dont like AMD cards from this era, because of worse power/performance ratio.. but mainly they are worse for Linux KVM, i maybe, maybe will make it working for WinXP virtual machine, but not for Win98 (videopass through is just not working for them)- i plan use for it other Nvidia card - Geforce 6xxx. There is chance that MacOS will ignore such one card, but i would not bet on it..

It does vary! I've found amd to vfio pass fine on one board, then fail migrated to another board. The 7 slot X8DTH's I mentioned will pass anything, seriously, everything I ever tried, gpu's, scsi, everything. Half the stuff wouldn't pass on any other board I tried. A scsi card revealed the trick to why I think....All those 16 slots are really 8's. Why that makes a difference I really don't know - but a brief test a few years back confirmed this theory when I cabled a 16 slot to a 16 gpu with a 8 wide cable and it worked. Not helpful, but it worked while it did not directly plugged in.

The X8DTi did pass the sky500 to XP. I was testing srv-io on that board with the gpu awhile back. The same does not pass on the X9DAi. Quadro's pass everywhere (FX1500/4500, K6xx). The FX1500 is a nice card to pass for 2k, but I put a passive cooler on it and it's too huge, from my C2SBC-Q. Late pci nvidia's usually don't, my pci 5450 passes. I'd expect that oddball sky500 to run Mac, BeOS, XP32. Although now only XP32 on a single ssd with my last optical doesn't get used much, it is a wide ranging box - you're coaxing me to play with it. The onboard matrox 200 variant could work with early OS's maybe? Why is the PCI slot poorly placed? It would need to have a sound card without a hdmi+ gpu. With the sky a single slot, a sound card and a pci gpu bring it up to passing 2 hardware assisted vm's! There even room for some more usb cards!

I had a call for some serial things to work on a modern system with a guest OS being 98, maybe this board is what I should try it on. I'll try XP first...I skipped 9x then, so...

I used to know what I was doing...

Reply 185 of 191, by White

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Please, try our new cache control utility that allows you to slowdown your system with activated cache. It works with Pentium Pro+ CPUs and it would be nice to get your feedback about X58 and Core i7/Xeon compatibility.

Here is the official thread Feel free to post in english. Any questions and feedback are welcomed.

Reply 186 of 191, by ruthan

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@White What is reason to make other cache on / off utility when there are others? Others are flawed or why?

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 187 of 191, by White

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If you read utility description carefully, you will see that it is not only on and off options. This utility allows to switch cache operating mode between writeback and writethru. Check it. I do not know any other utility that could do this. Or I’m wrong?

Reply 188 of 191, by ruthan

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Description should be better why i would want to writeback and writethru, what is difference, what is expected performance effect etc?

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 189 of 191, by Falcosoft

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White wrote on 2022-01-07, 12:04:

Please, try our new cache control utility that allows you to slowdown your system with activated cache. It works with Pentium Pro+ CPUs and it would be nice to get your feedback about X58 and Core i7/Xeon compatibility.

Here is the official thread Feel free to post in english. Any questions and feedback are welcomed.

Thanks, I have not tested in on newer Intel architectures but it works on Core 2 and also on AMD Athlon XP, Athlon 64 and Phenom II.
It's also worth mentioning that the utility does not work in protected/v86 mode when EMM386 loaded but it works with JEMM386 since it emulates privileged instructions.

ruthan wrote on 2022-01-09, 19:36:

Description should be better why i would want to writeback and writethru, what is difference, what is expected performance effect etc?

Practical translation:
1. Write-back cache enabled means full cache speed on modern architectures. That is both memory reads and memory writes are executed at maximum speed.
2. Write-through cache means different cache speeds for reads and writes. That is memory reads are executed at full cache speed but all memory writes are executed at only main memory speed.

So performance reduction depends on the application's memory usage pattern. If the application uses mainly memory reads then performance in write-through mode is more close to write-back/full cache speed mode.
But if the application uses mainly memory writes then performance in write-through mode is more close to no-cache/cache disabled mode.

Last edited by Falcosoft on 2022-01-09, 23:13. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 190 of 191, by wbahnassi

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For the purposes of DOS games compatibility, you want the read cache disabled to mainly make sure instruction reads are also slow, which best simulates a CPU running at slow clock rate and taking a while to execute each of those instructions. Slowing other memory operations is nice but secondary to the above. I've been successfully using SetMul.exe for my X58-based machine and it does take down my Xeon 2.67GHz to a stupid 386 33Mhz, which fixes most speed-sensitive games/programs for me (e.g. SB detection in Sierra games).

Reply 191 of 191, by ruthan

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Practical translation: 1. Write-back cache enabled means full cache speed on modern architectures. That is both memory reads and […]
Show full quote

Practical translation:
1. Write-back cache enabled means full cache speed on modern architectures. That is both memory reads and memory writes are executed at maximum speed.
2. Write-through cache means different cache speeds for reads and writes. That is memory reads are executed at full cache speed but all memory writes are executed at only main memory speed.

So performance reduction depends on the application's memory usage pattern. If the application uses mainly memory reads then performance in write-through mode is more close to write-back/full cache speed mode.
But if the application uses mainly memory writes then performance in write-through mode is more close to no-cache/cache disabled mode.

Thanks, but this is still theoretical, to be practical we would need some numbers, what to expect 😀

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.