Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-24, 16:42:

I bet figuring this stuff out back in the 80's and 90's was easy and fun without internet 😁

Kind of. If you've set up a DOS 6.22 system (or look in the oldmsdos directory on a Windows 95 CD) the HELP program has higher quality documentation, for each DOS command as well as each entry in config.sys like the ones you've been talking about, than programs tend to come with today. (When you hit "F1" in a lot of Windows 10 programs it seems it just does a bing search on how to use it).

In addition, error messages, well, "erred" on the side of confusing a novice user and therefore had at least some connection to the problem. "Abort, Retry, Fail?" "Invalid page fault" "General protection fault" may not have been clear, but it's almost as if we've gone too far in the opposite direction with all the Something went wrong 🙁 stuff.

On the other hand, once you dig deeper than the typical A+ certified technician stuff, it's amazing how much more there was to know about this hardware and that's what Vogons is great for and is a perspective totally missing back then. With all the engineering knowledge and data, rather than "shop talk" about whether Intel this or AMD that is actually faster etc.

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 22:00:

So, and I just found this out, you should just be able to use DEVICEHIGH over DEVICE in DOSINIT since it will load into conventional memory should there not be enough UMB or it just doesn't exist. It isn't going to change things functionally if that's true, but it will reduce a bit of clutter :p

Per http://info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~bse26236/batutil/h … lp/DEVICEHS.HTM

If upper memory is not available, the DEVICEHIGH command
functions just like the DEVICE command.

Reverted back, thanks!

At this rate I'll be a config.sys magician in no time 😁

jakethompson1 wrote on 2021-09-25, 02:00:

In addition, error messages, well, "erred" on the side of confusing a novice user and therefore had at least some connection to the problem. "Abort, Retry, Fail?" "Invalid page fault" "General protection fault" may not have been clear, but it's almost as if we've gone too far in the opposite direction with all the Something went wrong 🙁 stuff.

In my experience working school districts, I'm pretty sure it only started going that way because the end-user doesnt care one bit nor wants to learn anything about their machine beyond how to do what they need to, which I suppose is fair... until they don't do that last bit, anyways =3=

I personally wish there was a way to make those dumbed-down errors spit out the more detailed stuff more easily

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-25, 05:25:

TehGuy wrote on 2021-09-24, 22:00:

So, and I just found this out, you should just be able to use DEVICEHIGH over DEVICE in DOSINIT since it will load into conventional memory should there not be enough UMB or it just doesn't exist. It isn't going to change things functionally if that's true, but it will reduce a bit of clutter :p

Per http://info.wsisiz.edu.pl/~bse26236/batutil/h … lp/DEVICEHS.HTM

If upper memory is not available, the DEVICEHIGH command
functions just like the DEVICE command.

Reverted back, thanks!

At this rate I'll be a config.sys magician in no time 😁

So (and also TIL), for DOS1, since you have expanded memory you can load MSCDEX in there using the /E option if you happen to need more UMB space (like I did when installing 4DOS as my shell and I wanted to toss every part I could into UMB). I've yet to test if this does anything whacky so YMMV

I do not know if it just doesn't do that if you don't have EMS or enough free space, like how DEVICEHIGH will just load normally if there's no high

You can do the following with AUTOEXEC.BAT if you plan adding MSCDEX with the /E parameter for DOS1. It will throw you an error message (but still load it) about the expanded memory manager not being present if you use that parameter for DOS2.

1@ECHO OFF
2PROMPT $p$g
3PATH C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
4
5goto %config%
6
7:WINDOWS
8goto end
9
10:DOS1
11:DOS2
12:DOS3
13REM Add sound initialization here
14IF "%config%"=="DOS3" goto NOHIMEM
15IF "%config%"=="DOS1" LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /E
16IF "%config%"=="DOS2" LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
17LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
18goto end
19
20:NOHIMEM
21C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
22C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
23goto end
24
25:end

I left LH for DOS2 deliberately if you plan adding UMBPCI in the future.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-26, 02:37:

You can do the following with AUTOEXEC.BAT if you plan adding MSCDEX with the /E parameter for DOS1. It will throw you an error […]
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You can do the following with AUTOEXEC.BAT if you plan adding MSCDEX with the /E parameter for DOS1. It will throw you an error message (but still load it) about the expanded memory manager not being present if you use that parameter for DOS2.

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1@ECHO OFF
2PROMPT $p$g
3PATH C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
4
5goto %config%
6
7:WINDOWS
8goto end
9
10:DOS1
11:DOS2
12:DOS3
13REM Add sound initialization here
14IF "%config%"=="DOS3" goto NOHIMEM
15IF "%config%"=="DOS1" LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /E
16IF "%config%"=="DOS2" LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
17LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
18goto end
19
20:NOHIMEM
21C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001
22C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
23goto end
24
25:end

I left LH for DOS2 deliberately if you plan adding UMBPCI in the future.

If DEVICEHIGH functions like DEVICE without HIMEM in config.sys, does the same not apply to autoexec.bat since there's the LH stuff and :NOHIMEM separately?

FYI, you can save some memory by moving TSRs from autoexec.bat to config.sys using INSTALL/INSTALLHIGH.

it's to do with the size of the environment variable memory (it's the one where the PATH=, BLASTER=, etc... are located),
the one that gets set with the /E:xxxx behind the SHELL= line, also SHELLHIGH.
The reverse could also be true if you lower the size of the environment memory then all TSRs loaded from autoexec.bat or command prompt would occupy a slightly bit less memory.
Reason being that every tsr gets a copy of the environment space attached to its memory footprint.

at least that's what I remember... I think 🤣
I can't recall what the default is, and am atm too lazy to look through all the possibilities on the internet.
Should be easy enough to test.

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-26, 06:50:

If DEVICEHIGH functions like DEVICE without HIMEM in config.sys, does the same not apply to autoexec.bat since there's the LH stuff and :NOHIMEM separately?

Yes, but when using 4DOS as the command line it threw me error messages about the lack of UMB while still loading it into the conventional memory.

Still thinking about my own configuration files when writing that AUTOEXEC.BAT for you. 😁 And to give you an example of how to use GOTO and the IF statements for multiple configurations as well.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-26, 13:17:

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-26, 06:50:

If DEVICEHIGH functions like DEVICE without HIMEM in config.sys, does the same not apply to autoexec.bat since there's the LH stuff and :NOHIMEM separately?

Yes, but when using 4DOS as the command line it threw me error messages about the lack of UMB while still loading it into the conventional memory.

Still thinking about my own configuration files when writing that AUTOEXEC.BAT for you. 😁 And to give you an example of how to use GOTO and the IF statements for multiple configurations as well.

Hehe, that's ok, I'm learning a ton over here thanks to you guys.

I may have begun creating a config.sys what probably would seem like a monstosity to you (it has two submenus so far 😜), but hey, you learn by doing and turns out I like this stuff. I'll prune it down later once I figure out what I need and what I don't.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-09-22, 07:34:

I find multi-select CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT startup menus messy and confusing. They are also annoying to edit when a change needs to be made or a new driver needs to be installed.

They are also generally not needed. There is almost never a need to have more than one configuration (unless you change hardware).

If you use non-standard real-mode drivers that Win9x does not recognize and therefore, they cause performance degradation or, worse, system instability - then you want a separate "Windows" configuration which does not load these drivers, and a "DOS" configuration that does. Those UDMA HDD drivers come to mind, if one uses them.

Sombrero wrote on 2021-09-26, 13:39:

I may have begun creating a config.sys what probably would seem like a monstosity to you (it has two submenus so far 😜), but hey, you learn by doing and turns out I like this stuff. I'll prune it down later once I figure out what I need and what I don't.

You're doing it wrong. As an exercise in what's possible, it makes sense. As a practical tool - it does not. Given that you really don't seem to load any special DOS drivers, you don't need a boot menu at all. All you need is:

1DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
2DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM D=64 MIN=0
3BUFFERS=30
4FILES=45
5LASTDRIVE=E
6STACKS=9,256
7BREAK=ON
8SHELL=C:\COMMAND.COM /E:512 /P
9DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\videcdd.sys /D:MSCD001

You may want to play with various EMM386 flags to maximize upper memory. If you have multiple partitions, you may need to bump LASTDRIVE.

There is no reason to use DOS=NOAUTO. It's basically throwing away optimized defaults of win9x DOS and managing it yourself. Why? When DOS is AUTO-managed, it implies DOS=HIGH,UMB and it loads FILES, BUFFERS etc HIGH without you having to specify it manually.

Once your CONFIG.SYS is simplified, the AUTOEXEC is similarly pruned:

1@ECHO OFF
2LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /E
3LH C:\DOSPACK\DRIVERS\ctmouse.exe /R2
4LH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\DOSKEY.COM
5SET PROMPT=$P$G
6SET PATH=C:\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;C:\CTCM;C:\DOSPACK\ORPHINIT;C:\DOSPACK\THROTTLE
7SET TEMP=C:\WINDOWS\TEMP

And whatever other programs you may want to load and environment variables you may want to SET.

dr_st wrote on 2021-09-26, 16:11:

They are also generally not needed. There is almost never a need to have more than one configuration (unless you change hardware).

I disagree. There are some DOS programs that doesn't work with expanded memory manager and even one game called Zone 66 that refuses to run with HIMEM.SYS.

I prefer using multiple configurations with menu rather than using a boot disk or PIF with special CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-26, 16:14:

I disagree. There are some DOS programs that doesn't work with expanded memory manager and even one game called Zone 66 that refuses to run with HIMEM.SYS.

I prefer using multiple configurations with menu rather than using a boot disk or PIF with special CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT.

I was expecting this reply. 😀. Every time I bring this up, someone always jumps and mentions some obscure programs that don't work with this configuration (actually, usually they can't even name a single one, they just mention that they "exist"), and if they do mention something, it's typically something esoteric (like demos) or some old version of something that no one really needs to run at all, except in a "proof-of-concept" kind of way.

Notice that I said "generally". Of course I acknowledge that such things exist, and, heck, some of them might actually be games / programs that someone will want to run. However, For such stuff (like the Zone 66) - I would simply reboot and press F5. You have to reboot to load a different base configuration anyways.

99.9% of the time normal users would be using the same standard configuration that works. The reason people spend hours tweaking and fine-tuning their awesome boot menus with multiple levels of hierarchy is the same reason people build 25 different retro systems to "cover every era", where just 2 would suffice: some folks just like fiddling with their computers more than they like using them. 😉

dr_st wrote on 2021-09-26, 16:49:

I was expecting this reply. 😀. Every time I bring this up, someone always jumps and mentions some obscure programs that don't work with this configuration (actually, usually they can't even name a single one, they just mention that they "exist"), and if they do mention something, it's typically something esoteric (like demos) or some old version of something that no one really needs to run at all, except in a "proof-of-concept" kind of way.

Notice that I said "generally". Of course I acknowledge that such things exist, and, heck, some of them might actually be games / programs that someone will want to run. However, For such stuff (like the Zone 66) - I would simply reboot and press F5. You have to reboot to load a different base configuration anyways.

99.9% of the time normal users would be using the same standard configuration that works. The reason people spend hours tweaking and fine-tuning their awesome boot menus with multiple levels of hierarchy is the same reason people build 25 different retro systems to "cover every era", where just 2 would suffice: some folks just like fiddling with their computers more than they like using them. 😉

I recognize that most users will be fine with a single configuration or no CONFIG.SYS and/or AUTOEXEC.BAT for Windows 9x, and the focus is mostly on popular titles such as DOOM. The OP just wants to treat the MS-DOS mode and Windows 98 as "separate" just like me (and I like tinkering 😁).

While I have two old computers around late 90's, I'm mostly focused on DOS and the other one doesn't get used much. Getting multiple old computers for DOS seems redundant (especially with the right slowdown utilities) for me unless you need an XT computer for very early games which won't work on later ones anyway. 😉

dr_st wrote on 2021-09-26, 16:49:

I was expecting this reply. 😀. Every time I bring this up, someone always jumps and mentions some obscure programs

If you want something maybe not obscure, IIRC it's either Ultima 4/5 or one of the Realms of Arkania games that'll also not launch if EMM386 is present, as well as one or two benchmarks in Phil's packs complaining. I feel like I have another one, but I've yet to get around to reinstalling/testing all of what I've got. Even then it just means having a config for conventional mem only and then one for the everything else, at least for me.