Robbbert wrote on 2023-12-28, 05:46:

Is there anything I've missed here? Is Windows 3.0 actually useful for something?

There's only one thing that Windows 3.0 has, but the 3.1 lacks: REAL MODE.

First, it allows to use Windows on XT-class machines - but I'm not sure if there's any advantage of 3.0 over 2.11 on such hardware.
Second, it allows to run software designed for Windows 1.x/2.x - but there was little such software, and most got quickly ported to protected mode.

There are multimedia extensions for Windows 3.0.

wbahnassi wrote on 2023-12-28, 08:45:

There are multimedia extensions for Windows 3.0.

Indeed but this edition of Windows 3.0 does no longer support Real mode.

Disruptor wrote on 2023-12-28, 11:13:

Indeed but this edition of Windows 3.0 does no longer support Real mode.

It does support Real mode.
However, the multimedia apps (eg. Media Player) require Standard or Enhanced mode.

Hi. There's an entry at Winhistory.de, it covers Win 3 MME.

https://www.winhistory.de/more/win3.htm

English translation

PS: I vaguely remembere that a swap file utility can be run from within Real-Mode.
MME also had its own animation format, comparable to FLI/FLC (Flick). A screenshot can be seen here.

What also comes to mind is that Windows 3.0 RM has EMS support, which it may need so badly considering its size and complexity.
Having EMS available also makes using wallpapers possible.

Edit: There also was a Sound Blaster Windows Kit by Creative, for Windows 3.0 (look for win30.zip).
It contained a few new DLLs and a mixer utility. It supported SB 1.x/2/Pro1. However, I know of no game or application that runs with that.
Most Windows 3.1 games I played in the 90s wanted Windows 3.1, a few mentioned Windows 3.0 MME in their help file (.hlp).

Jo22 wrote on 2023-12-28, 15:19:

Edit: There also was a Sound Blaster Windows Kit by Creative, for Windows 3.0 (look for win30.zip).
It contained a few new DLLs and a mixer utility. It supported SB 1.x/2/Pro1. However, I know of no game or application that runs with that.

Mathematica 2.2 has this mysterious option:

it can be installed in Windows 3.0, but after the successful installation it refuses to run - "This application requires a newer version of Microsoft Windows."

Jo22 wrote on 2023-12-28, 15:19:

There also was a Sound Blaster Windows Kit by Creative, for Windows 3.0 (look for win30.zip).
It contained a few new DLLs and a mixer utility. It supported SB 1.x/2/Pro1. However, I know of no game or application that runs with that.

Here's what I've found over the last couple of years.

Commercial:
After Dark 2.0 - Berkeley Systems
RISK - Virgin Interactive Entertainment
RoboSport - Maxis
Super Tetris (v1.0) - Spectrum Holobyte
TRACON for Windows - Wesson International

Shareware:
STARDATE 2140.2: Battles On Distant Planets (v1.0) - Glacier Edge Technology
Sound1 Windows/Soundblaster VOC Sound Player (v1.0) - Great White North Technologies
Voice Blaster Jr. for Windows (v1.0) - Mark E. Cowan
WinVox (v1.0) - Nick M. McCurdy

Grzyb wrote on 2023-12-28, 07:10:

First, it allows to use Windows on XT-class machines - but I'm not sure if there's any advantage of 3.0 over 2.11 on such hardware.

The aesthetics are certainly better with 3.0 over 2.11, and subjectively, even superior to 3.1, as the non-active windows lack the button clutter of the later release.

Windows 3.0 makes for a decent DOS launcher/task-switcher on XT systems, if nothing else.

That's very interesting! 😃 Fine wallpaper&setup, too! 👍

Edit: Just checked. The files in the update archive (win30.zip) are complete except for the setup program.
All it seems to do is to copy the files and add an entry in WIN.INI, rather than SYSTEM.INI like modern Sound Blaster software does.

It adds something like this..

[SoundBlaster]
Port=220
Int=7
DMA=1

The full Windows driver is available here, it's the windows.lzh archive that's part of the Sound Blaster Pro CT1330A Drivers (use LHARC in DOS to extract).
http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=5 … &menustate=37,0

Pictures attached.

Maxis and Virgin were early Windows 3.0 supporters. SimLife, SimAnt, SimCity Classic, SimEarth, Monopoly Deluxe, Deluxe Scrabble etc.

Gnu Chess 3.21 was released for Windows 3.0

You still get redbook audio from the CD-ROM drive headphone jack so try some early MPC titles with stated Windows 3.0 support: Battle Chess Enhanced, Chessmaster 3000 Multimedia, and the early Sierra CD games: King's Quest V, Jones In The Fast Lane, Space Quest IV. I think the Sierra games only have redbook voices but it's better than nothing. Also the Alone In The Dark CD Trilogy all say they will work under Windows 3.0 in the manual, although that might be a typo. I think they all have
redbook music.

Try some of the early DOS CD games with redbook tracks. They will probably launch from Windows 3.0: Secret of Monkey Island, Loom, Future Wars, Lord of The Rings Enhanced. They all have CD music.

Kodak CD Portfolio discs play ADPCM audio from CD with no sound card and the Kodak Photo CD Player works in Windows 3.0. So you can try several Philips CD-i educational discs like National Parks Tour, How to Photograph Nature, Flowers of Robert Mapplethorpe, Nature Under Threat WWF. There are hundreds of other Photo CD's that should work as well.

Cloudschatze wrote on 2023-12-28, 22:35:

Windows 3.0 makes for a decent DOS launcher/task-switcher on XT systems, if nothing else.

It really does. Early Windows 3.1 Betas runs on Real-Mode, too, but seem to lack EMS support.

Btw, there was early communications software that ran on Windows 3.0.
Those originating from Windows 2.x platform might still have been Real-Mode friendly, too.

Unfortunately, commercial software that old is rather hard to get by these days. 🙁

Here's an ancient training video or TV advertisement by Telekom, it just came to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lYFr-C_SKg&t=820

It's about the then-new ISDN technology.

At about 13:40, a PC running Windows 3.0 can be seen. It has the old Program Manager icon.
The keyboard is quite button rich, so it must be an AT computer already, I guess.

PS: You're right about the game Battles on distant planets, I got a copy of it.
This is very fascinating, thanks again for the information.

It seems that the sndblst.dll was an early alternative to MCI/WaveOut API of Windows 3.0 MME & 3.1x.
But a more lower level "API", maybe. Still, very interesting.

Do you think it might be possible to get it running on Windows 3.1, as well?
Old programs that were written especially for sndblst.dll may not work without it, right?

motley6 wrote on 2023-12-30, 22:36:

Maxis and Virgin were early Windows 3.0 supporters. SimLife, SimAnt, SimCity Classic, SimEarth, Monopoly Deluxe, Deluxe Scrabbl […]
Show full quote

Maxis and Virgin were early Windows 3.0 supporters. SimLife, SimAnt, SimCity Classic, SimEarth, Monopoly Deluxe, Deluxe Scrabble etc.

Gnu Chess 3.21 was released for Windows 3.0

You still get redbook audio from the CD-ROM drive headphone jack so try some early MPC titles with stated Windows 3.0 support: Battle Chess Enhanced, Chessmaster 3000 Multimedia,
and the early Sierra CD games: King's Quest V, Jones In The Fast Lane, Space Quest IV. I think the Sierra games only have redbook voices but it's better than nothing.
Also the Alone In The Dark CD Trilogy all say they will work under Windows 3.0 in the manual, although that might be a typo. I think they all have redbook music.

Try some of the early DOS CD games with redbook tracks.
They will probably launch from Windows 3.0: Secret of Monkey Island, Loom, Future Wars, Lord of The Rings Enhanced. They all have CD music.

Kodak CD Portfolio discs play ADPCM audio from CD with no sound card and the Kodak Photo CD Player works in Windows 3.0.
So you can try several Philips CD-i educational discs like National Parks Tour, How to Photograph Nature, Flowers of Robert Mapplethorpe, Nature Under Threat WWF.
There are hundreds of other Photo CD's that should work as well.

That's interesting! I remember Kodak Photo CD from the 90s, still have the sampler CD here.
I fondly watching those with my father on an 20" VGA monitor. PC was a 386DX-40 w/ Mitsumi Lu005S and 16 MB of RAM (30pin SIMMs).
He needed that for Win95 later on .

Edit: Text edited (on PC; reformatted for easier reading). Hope that's okay.

Edit: That's also interesting, from a historical point of view, at very least.
It's a quote from Battles on Distant Planets v1.9 readme file.

SOUND SUPPORT […]
Show full quote

SOUND SUPPORT

BATTLES 1.9 will provide sound support for the standard PC speaker
or for Microsoft Multimedia Audio compatible sound boards under
Windows 3.1 or greater.

If you have Windows 3.0, you should upgrade to Windows 3.1 to
receive the best sound effects.

The SoundBlaster Sound Board support provided previously under
Windows 3.0, via the sndblst.dll which had been available from
Creative Labs, Inc., has been discontinued due to the withdrawal
of support for the sndblst.dll by Creative Labs, Inc.

If you do not receive sound effects from BATTLES 1.9, and you
do have a compatible sound card, please test your configuration
using the Media Player (provided with MS Windows 3.1) and the
standard .mid and .wav files also provided with MS Windows 3.1.

The original game, v1.0, seems to work just fine with that sound DLL file.
But the support was finally dropped because Creative abandoned the DLL ?

What's also funny is the 4 MB RAM requirement. For a game. In the early 90s.
And I always thought I was weird for having a hot-rod 286 PC w/ 4 MB under Windows 3.1! 😅
Anyway, it's a simulation game with large maps, like SimCity.. So it can be excused, I think.

TECHNICAL SUPPORT […]
Show full quote

TECHNICAL SUPPORT

Battles is a huge Windows application, and accordingly so, places
a large demand on your system. We recommend that you have a minimum
of 4MB of RAM, and nothing else running (just Windows 3.x) at the
time, also we recommend running Battles from a hard disk.

Edit: The game ATC: Air Traffic Controller by Mallard Software Inc. seems to use that DLL, too. It's also including VOC files.

Hi there, a happy new year to all of you! 🚀 🥳

I've did a little experiment with sndblst.dll and ran Jukebox application in Windows 3.0 Real-Mode.
To what I can tell, it seems to work. 😄 So XT owners could have Sound Blaster support on Windows, maybe.

Edit: This was just a quick test done in DOSBox. On real hardware, there might be different results, who knows.
Unfortunately, I don't have a real PC/XT with VGA graphics, 8088 or V20 CPU, Sound Blaster and Windows 3.0 at hand right now..

I'll be at the computer later today, so I'll try out some multi-media ideas. The soundblaster 2.0 DOS side is already in the machine (used by WFW) so I'll see if it can work with 3.0 as well.

I don't have any XT-class machines though - all my tests are on my usual low-end workhorse, a 500MHz Celeron.

I downloaded 2 versions of MME and comparison showed they are the same. I installed one of them, it went in without issue, after restarting windows the new goodies were there.

So now we have Media Player, Sound recorder, Jukebox, Chatter Box and Music Box. The sounds applet has been upgraded so you can choose sounds for windows events. There's an Alarm Clock.
The control panel now has the familiar MIDI Mapper, SB Pro Mixer, Screen Saver and Display applets. The Drivers applet shows the various MM extensions.

Media Player is incredibly ancient and limited. I couldn't get much to play in it. Jukebox plays MIDI files. Music Box lets you play and choose tracks on an audio CD. Sound Recorder works well. Chatter Box plays WAV files.

Bugs:
- Alarm Clock: I use 24-hour time, which the clock displayed. But the alarm times are limited to 12-hour time.
- The Display applet lets you choose different versions of VGA, which works. But if you then go into Setup, the Display in use is blanked and the VGA options don't show in there.
- Fonts applet lets you import new fonts (*.FON), I chose some fonts from Windows 3.1 and nothing happened.
- There's a supplied MSDOS.EXE (file manager before File Manager). It works but it's ugly as sin. It also ignores my date display preference (century doesn't show).

Apart from those trifling issues, the additions make a great improvement to Windows 3.0 - all I need to do is get some games that have been mentioned above, and see what happens.

Robbbert wrote on 2024-01-02, 07:46:

Apart from those trifling issues, the additions make a great improvement to Windows 3.0 - all I need to do is get some games that have been mentioned above, and see what happens.

Hi there! I'm glad you got it working and enjoyed Windows 3.0 MME as much as I did!

I've been using it as a basis for an Windows 3.1 installation, originally.
To get support for MM files and to have SB16 drivers that work in Standard-Mode (I got the Tandy versions)..

Nowadays, I enjoy Windows 3.0 MME a lot because it's kind of a intermediate step between 3.0 and 3.1.
It's simply fascinating working with something so ancient and strange. 😅

About the games.. Those mentioned above don't work with the Windows sound system of 3.0 MME or 3.1.

They rather talk to sndblst.dll directly.
Unfortunately, the sndblst.dll doesn't work on 3.0 MME or 3.1 *IF* there's a Sound Blaster driver loaded that uses same card as the sndblst.dll.

To make both work, two sound cards must be available under Windows. My old PAS16 was ideal for this, I realize now.

It had two soundcards in one: The PAS16 native part and a Thunderboard soundcard (SB 1.5 compatible).

So the PAS16 part could use regular Windows drivers, while the oldschool sndblst.dll could talk to the Thunderboard.
That way, both old and new Windows games would have worked.

On DOSBox, someone could simply use Gravis Ultrasound or Covox Speech Thing for Windows' sound system and leave Sound Blaster emulation available to sndblst.dll.

PS: I'll have a look for Windows 3.0 MME compatible games. I'll write back over weekend. ^^

Thanks for your information. I found and downloaded a pack called "630 Windows 3.0 games", although it took a while to get everything over to the computer.

I used the Windows option that scans your hard drive and creates icons for every program. This took ages, created 6 groups then crashed. Starting windows again caused instant depletion of resources and it wasn't even possible to quit windows, so the Ctrl-Alt-Del had to be used. I modified progman.ini to choose only one of the new groups, now I could start windows. The new program groups get messed up with icons all over the top of each other (yep another bug).

Then the cleanup - remove unwanted programs, games that crashed, games that froze windows, games that wanted a newer version of windows, games that required installation, games with missing files, and duplicates. It was noticed that if you want to change the icon, you can only choose alternate icons in the exe - you can't choose an ico file or an alternate exe/dll for icons. Alt-enter doesn't even work, you have to go through the menu and choose Properties.

After all that, there wasn't much left. I then manually went through the games starting with 1 thru C and picked up more working games. By now it was noticed that resource management on this windows isn't very good, just opening all the groups brought resources from 80% down to 39%. Closing the groups didn't reclaim the space, only a restart can fix it.

Although I couldn't get sound from Distant Planets (works on 3.1 though), I found another game called Distant Desert, and the sound works with that. Also any game that comes with included WAV files will produce sound too.

I can't really add more icons due to the resources issue, but I can still try games via the File Manager (which is horrible compared to the one in 3.1).

If you can find a Cirrus Logic VGA card with at least 1MB of memory you can have high color or high resolution (unfortunately not both at the same time) in Win 3.0 with the beta graphics drivers for Win 3.1. I don't recall if they have any limitations in real mode, though.

Higher color depths means Program Manager .GRP files will get larger because they store the icons, and there's a limit on the size (probably 64KiB but I forget), so basically higher color depths means less icons per group. At least this affects 3.1x so I assume it affects 3.0 too!

.FON font files are at some level 16-bit Windows executable files with an NE header, so it is possible that the Windows 3.1 fonts indicate that they're not compatible with Windows 3.0. The PC-SIG Library on CD-ROM, 12th Edition has some fonts that say they're for Windows 3.0 - although quite a few say they're for Adobe Type Manager, which is different again and probably not what you want to test Windows 3.0 features - so perhaps some of them would work.

One benefit of high color depths in Win 3.x is that it avoids pallette switching. It drives me nuts in 256 color mode when a window uses a different pallette from the desktop background.

That may be true, though some applications/games do expect 256c palette graphics.
FractInt for Windows, for example, uses palette-cycling.
WinG and other things may want 256c, too.
The Windows Help system has small glitches past 256c (hyperlinks become gray instead of being green).

Watching Video CD or MovieCD on the other hand looks better with hi/tru-color, though.
Same goes for DTP and image editing.
That's were tru-color makes absolutely sense.

Btw, Windows 3 wants to reserve 20 colours for its own. So GIFs or 8-Bit BMPs/PCXs on Windows 3.1 shouldn't use more than 236c (236 active colours in the picture, it's still a 256c file).

Displaying a full 256c picture on a 256c desktop does of course cause a discoloured desktop.
In such a situation, Windows 3 tries to sacrifice its reserved colours to display the picture as best as possible.