Ah yes, that compiler changed names a couple times. These days it's known as the Digital Mars compiler - maybe the current documentation is still somewhat relevant to your version? Fwiw DOS and Win16 support is all still in there even today.

elszgensa wrote on 2024-02-15, 13:56:

Ah yes, that compiler changed names a couple times. These days it's known as the Digital Mars compiler - maybe the current documentation is still somewhat relevant to your version? Fwiw DOS and Win16 support is all still in there even today.

Thank you your quick reply! Using you link I try to get support from Digital Mars. Chance is slim but let see.

Digital Mars's site is strange. It seems abandoned a while ago. Support is directing requests to mailing archives. These semms to be active, but with a lot of fake entries. Checking the main site it is clear that th current Mars development environment left Zortech core behind long ago which is not a surprise.

I hope there is a DOS based IDE of Zortech like Borland has and it is reacheable somehow...

> DOS ide (...) zed.exe but I am not sure this is the right name

I think their attempt at an IDE is zwb.exe, the Zortech Workbench. Lmk how that goes for you, because I'm having a bad time with it - either this thing doesn't like DOSbox, or someone (their installer or me) messed up. I cannot fathom how a commercial product of this quality would have survived to version 3, so the experience "back in the days" must have been better and something's wrong with my setup.

I enjoyed their DMD and DMC compilers, and have little recollection of the IDE included with (the commercial version of) the latter (so at least it wasn't horrible), but their DOS offering... so far ain't very good.

edit: Alright, working a lot better now. Things learned: do not do this in DOSbox, it breaks the textmode "graphics"; when the installer asks which memory models you want, none are preselected, so do not simply continue; the later installer I have forgets to set/extend the necessary environment variables (PATH, LIB, INCLUDE) for some reason, when the earlier one did.

I gotta say though, I enjoyed how their quirky installer lets you insert floppies in any order you like.

I used the Zortech C++ package (unsure which version) in about the early 90:s timeframe, as an intermediate step to understand C++ better, it had an intermediate step generating C code from my C++ source, which was more familiar to me. I didn't do anything more serious with it, and I have mostly forgotten it now.

elszgensa wrote on 2024-02-16, 14:28:

> DOS ide (...) zed.exe but I am not sure this is the right name […]
Show full quote

> DOS ide (...) zed.exe but I am not sure this is the right name

I think their attempt at an IDE is zwb.exe, the Zortech Workbench. Lmk how that goes for you, because I'm having a bad time with it - either this thing doesn't like DOSbox, or someone (their installer or me) messed up. I cannot fathom how a commercial product of this quality would have survived to version 3, so the experience "back in the days" must have been better and something's wrong with my setup.

I enjoyed their DMD and DMC compilers, and have little recollection of the IDE included with (the commercial version of) the latter (so at least it wasn't horrible), but their DOS offering... so far ain't very good.

edit: Alright, working a lot better now. Things learned: do not do this in DOSbox, it breaks the textmode "graphics"; when the installer asks which memory models you want, none are preselected, so do not simply continue; the later installer I have forgets to set/extend the necessary environment variables (PATH, LIB, INCLUDE) for some reason, when the earlier one did.

I gotta say though, I enjoyed how their quirky installer lets you insert floppies in any order you like.

Sorry for the late reply.
I had tried zbw.exe but I was not able to fully comprehend its meaning. I was not able to open any file with it, it show an empty list box and I can not to do anything. There is a help file for zbw but I donot know which program should I use to open it. Still hunting for the missing pieces of knowledge....
I found only one link mentioning zed in the 2.0 package: https://www.drdobbs.com/cpp/examining-zortech-c-20/184408290
Meantime I installed Borland Turbo C++ 4.5 for windows 3.1. God, the user experience can not be compared to Zortech. After the installation a lot of effort were made to guide the user to learn the system. Compiling and running the first example program was a joy. Later on I will install the Dos version as well to try it out.

Rwolf wrote on 2024-02-16, 20:30:

I used the Zortech C++ package (unsure which version) in about the early 90:s timeframe, as an intermediate step to understand C++ better, it had an intermediate step generating C code from my C++ source, which was more familiar to me. I didn't do anything more serious with it, and I have mostly forgotten it now.

Thank you for your reply! Do you have any memory which program was the dos IDE within the package?

> I was not able to open any file with it, it show an empty list box and I can not to do anything

Yep that file selection dialog (if that's what it's supposed to be) is sorely lacking. You gotta know the name of the file to open beforehand; change to the appropriate directory, start zwb then input the name. At least that's what I did. That allowed me to compile one of the examples, and single step in the debugger, which worked fine.

> Meantime I installed Borland Turbo C++

I assumed going into this thread that your goal was to use Zortech? If all you wanted was to get some, any, C++ compiler to work with then there appear to be better options.

What's your goal anyways? Developing for DOS, in general? Developing for DOS, using a somewhat period correct OS (though not necessarily DOS) and tools? Developing in DOS?

mita wrote on 2024-02-20, 19:56:

Rwolf wrote on 2024-02-16, 20:30:

I used the Zortech C++ package (unsure which version) in about the early 90:s timeframe, as an intermediate step to understand C++ better, it had an intermediate step generating C code from my C++ source, which was more familiar to me. I didn't do anything more serious with it, and I have mostly forgotten it now.

Thank you for your reply! Do you have any memory which program was the dos IDE within the package?

Sorry, that is more than I can recall now; we mainly evaluated C++ as a relatively new language at the time, to see what good it was for in our specific case; mainly we wrote low level code, assembly & C to access various hardware we built for in-house debugging of larger systems. Unfortunately C++ did not quite make the grade there.

elszgensa wrote on 2024-02-21, 08:02:

> I was not able to open any file with it, it show an empty list box and I can not to do anything […]
Show full quote

> I was not able to open any file with it, it show an empty list box and I can not to do anything

Yep that file selection dialog (if that's what it's supposed to be) is sorely lacking. You gotta know the name of the file to open beforehand; change to the appropriate directory, start zwb then input the name. At least that's what I did. That allowed me to compile one of the examples, and single step in the debugger, which worked fine.

> Meantime I installed Borland Turbo C++

I assumed going into this thread that your goal was to use Zortech? If all you wanted was to get some, any, C++ compiler to work with then there appear to be better options.

What's your goal anyways? Developing for DOS, in general? Developing for DOS, using a somewhat period correct OS (though not necessarily DOS) and tools? Developing in DOS?

Ok, I will try it out, thank you your advice.
I mentioned Borland C++ just for comparison of the difficulty of the initial steps after installation. In 1989 I used Borland Turbo C to develop a framework for an OCR sw development. Good old days.

Believe or not in 1991 I purchased Zortech C++. This was my first SW purchase for a development project. I used the sw for a half a year until the project cancelled. Installing the sw now is a process of recalling memories nothing more. I try to play with it a bit to get the feeling what it was and be able to compare to modern IDEs like PlatformIO. Just for a feeling what 32-33 years means in sw development environment. And yes, unfortunately I forgot a lot about that period of my life.

These days a cross compiler tool chain really is the way to go, and then you get to retain your modern version control toolset, your fancy multi-window, syntax highlighting, auto-completing editor... And not have your silly null pointer dereferencing mistake take down your editor as well.

Much has gotten needlessly complicated over the last 35+ years of computing, but this is one of those areas where I wouldn't have the good old days back again! 😁

megatron-uk wrote on 2024-02-22, 23:23:

modern version control toolset, your fancy multi-window, syntax highlighting, auto-completing editor

Old news. These days all a pro needs is ChatGPT, and after the result is confirmed to work on the first try, paste the prompt into discord for later! very, very /s

The one big issue with cross compilation is that it makes debugging kinda hard. Anyone got gdbserver to run on DOS yet?

megatron-uk wrote on 2024-02-22, 23:23:

These days a cross compiler tool chain really is the way to go, and then you get to retain your modern version control toolset, your fancy multi-window, syntax highlighting, auto-completing editor... And not have your silly null pointer dereferencing mistake take down your editor as well.

Much has gotten needlessly complicated over the last 35+ years of computing, but this is one of those areas where I wouldn't have the good old days back again! 😁

Fully agree. Nice memories hunting the null pointers 😀))

elszgensa wrote on 2024-02-23, 00:10:

megatron-uk wrote on 2024-02-22, 23:23:

modern version control toolset, your fancy multi-window, syntax highlighting, auto-completing editor

Old news. These days all a pro needs is ChatGPT, and after the result is confirmed to work on the first try, paste the prompt into discord for later! very, very /s

The one big issue with cross compilation is that it makes debugging kinda hard. Anyone got gdbserver to run on DOS yet?

Ah yes, AI is going to replace us all in 6 months/a year/10 years/real soon. I'll be glad when AI can run my flying car and home fusion generator safely 😀

I work with some machine learning/data science/AI researchers (I support our institutional high performance computing facility) and the reality, as most with any real knowledge are probably aware, is that while there are some niches where AI is making some real progress (text generation, image/audio manipulation, some branches of bioinformatics)... The whole "AI is going to take over the world and we will soon be out of jobs" stance is really quite far fetched.

In most cases it is still only as good as all of the data it has slurped up. (And some times substantially worse 😂)

megatron-uk wrote on 2024-02-23, 11:40:

Ah yes, AI is going to replace us all in 6 months/a year/10 years/real soon. I'll be glad when AI can run my flying car and home fusion generator safely 😀

I work with some machine learning/data science/AI researchers (I support our institutional high performance computing facility) and the reality, as most with any real knowledge are probably aware, is that while there are some niches where AI is making some real progress (text generation, image/audio manipulation, some branches of bioinformatics)... The whole "AI is going to take over the world and we will soon be out of jobs" stance is really quite far fetched.

In most cases it is still only as good as all of the data it has slurped up. (And some times substantially worse 😂)

its interesting how generative AI can generate code that works from text prompts though, it shows just how many times similar questions were asked on the very many programming forums over the years! i would guess too that for many popular compilers it could generate code that fits in with the quirks of that compiler and its targets too, for some retro applications it might help create (recreate) some applications for old OSes with old tools like zortech

gerry wrote on 2024-02-23, 12:41:

its interesting how generative AI can generate code that works from text prompts though, it shows just how many times similar questions were asked on the very many programming forums over the years! i would guess too that for many popular compilers it could generate code that fits in with the quirks of that compiler and its targets too, for some retro applications it might help create (recreate) some applications for old OSes with old tools like zortech

Absolutely. One of the most interesting aspects, outside of the pure-research arena, is the image generation side of things. It's fascinating how 'creative' some of these models are in generating 'new' art (albeit based upon thousands of iterations of previous input).