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Which SB16 should I use?

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First post, by insanitor

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Hi guys!

I’m doing a new Build and I need advice.

My iBase MB800H motherboard bit the dust so…..

I’ve got an Axiomtek IMB200 motherboard now that seems to work fine.

But I’m not sure which SoundBlaster 16 ISA sound card I should use.

I have a CT1740. It appears to come with an accompanying CD-ROM drive by Creative. Model CR-563-B. It says, “CREATIVE SB” on the front of it.

I also have a CT2950. It’s got an IDE interface on it. I have a generic DVD-ROM connected to it.

I also have an X2GS as referenced in this thread: X2GS : Waveblaster board with dual soundbank support, official Dream/Roland licensed GS bank

I also have a Roland SCB-7 board around here somewhere.

Which sound card should I use? I’ve decided not to use my PCMIDI card and I’ll just use a daughter board instead.

I need advice on this.

When I go, the smiles and the laughs go with me.

Reply 1 of 18, by PD2JK

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Personally I would go for the CT1740, which has OPL3 for FM synthesized music and sounds better for my taste.
CQM isn't bad. Just 'different'.

CT2950 can have OPL3 too, check the card itself.

i386 16 ⇒ i486 DX4 100 ⇒ Pentium MMX 200 ⇒ Athlon Orion 700 | TB 1000 ⇒ AthlonXP 1700+ ⇒ Opteron 165 ⇒ Dual Opteron 856

Reply 2 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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See this thread: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

In summary, the X2GS won't run so great on any SB16 due to the various MPU-401 bugs on those cards. More info here. You can bypass this by getting a cheap, secondary sound card which doesn't have those issues, and relegating all MPU-401 duties to it. Something like an ESS AudioDrive 1868F will do fine.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 3 of 18, by Jo22

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I would go for the CT1740, as well.
Along with the CT1350B (SB2) it's a Sound Blaster I value (I used to be a PAS16 user in the 90s).

It just works, has the fat sound, a real OPL3, good chances for a DSP 4.05 (no MIDI stuck notes bug yet), jumper based configuration (no drivers/initialization needed; works on any OS).

The "noise blaster" can be made less noisy by bypassing the on-board amplifier.
That way, we get line-out, which can be cleaner.

Btw, generally speaking, noise doesn't necessarily travel in one direction.
The active speaker boxes can contaminate any audio connection, too.

So I'd opt for a little galvanic insulation here, no matter the sound card type. There should be commercial modules for that (opto coupler etcl.

A pair of 1:1 AF transformers can be used to build an interface, too.
It's passive and harmless, as long as there's no short circuit.
Some one can add some resistor in series on the soundcard side to prevent this, if worried (say, ~1 kilo ohm).

Edit: Something like an ESS card can also be nice, of course.
Though since the old SB16 literally has introduced the WaveBlaster header, it should be very compatible (it's the reference hardware).
There shouldn't be any funny surprises regarding the pinout or voltage levels, I mean.
It's the original WaveBlaster header, after all.

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In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

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Reply 4 of 18, by orcish75

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-04, 07:00:

See this thread: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

In summary, the X2GS won't run so great on any SB16 due to the various MPU-401 bugs on those cards. More info here. You can bypass this by getting a cheap, secondary sound card which doesn't have those issues, and relegating all MPU-401 duties to it. Something like an ESS AudioDrive 1868F will do fine.

Yup, both cards are affected by those bugs, however, if you're any good with electronics and soldering, you can fix those bugs by following this thread:

The Soundblaster DSP project

Reply 5 of 18, by insanitor

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-04, 07:00:

See this thread: Sound Blaster: From best to worst

In summary, the X2GS won't run so great on any SB16 due to the various MPU-401 bugs on those cards. More info here. You can bypass this by getting a cheap, secondary sound card which doesn't have those issues, and relegating all MPU-401 duties to it. Something like an ESS AudioDrive 1868F will do fine.

What if I use a my PCMIDI card? As far as I know it has no MPU-401 bugs.

I got it from here:

http://pcmidi.eu/pcmidi.html

I also have two other cards.

The SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold and another card that looks like a Yamaha Labway card. I’m not sure of the exact model but it definitely does have a ymf chip on it.

When I go, the smiles and the laughs go with me.

Reply 6 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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insanitor wrote on 2024-01-04, 09:11:

What if I use a my PCMIDI card? As far as I know it has no MPU-401 bugs.

Yes, PCMIDI is completely bugfree and will work perfectly for this purpose.

The SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold and another card that looks like a Yamaha Labway card. I’m not sure of the exact model but it definitely does have a ymf chip on it.

The AWE64 doesn't have hanging note bugs, but it does suffer from a different issue which is inherent to all SB16/AWE cards. The stuttering when high sample rates are used together with (external) MIDI playback. This is most evident in Duke3D, though a bunch of other games have the same problem on those cards.

Your Labway Yamaha card probably uses a YMF71x chip. Those are excellent cards with bugfree MPU-401. I use one of those alongside my AWE64, and they work great in tandem.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 7 of 18, by orcish75

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-04, 09:32:

Yes, PCMIDI is completely bugfree and will work perfectly for this purpose.

Yup, +1

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-04, 09:32:

Your Labway Yamaha card probably uses a YMF71x chip. Those are excellent cards with bugfree MPU-401. I use one of those alongside my AWE64, and they work great in tandem.

Agreed. The YMF71X cards are one of the best out there. Haven't tried it in tandem with the AWE64, but that will certainly cover just about all bases for games.

Reply 8 of 18, by insanitor

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I have the Labway card here. It has a Yamaha YMF719E-S chip on it. This card has an FCC ID of LWHA151A00.

The model number appears to be A151-A00.

I hope I can find DOS drivers for it.

The FCC has this information on the card:

https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetEas731Report.do?a … _id=LWHA151-A00

When I go, the smiles and the laughs go with me.

Reply 9 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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insanitor wrote on 2024-01-04, 20:26:

I have the Labway card here. It has a Yamaha YMF719E-S chip on it. This card has an FCC ID of LWHA151A00.

Phil has a bunch of drivers for YMF 71x cards on his website. Some of those should work.

Alternatively, you can use Unisound to initialize the card in pure DOS.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 10 of 18, by insanitor

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-04, 21:53:
insanitor wrote on 2024-01-04, 20:26:

I have the Labway card here. It has a Yamaha YMF719E-S chip on it. This card has an FCC ID of LWHA151A00.

Phil has a bunch of drivers for YMF 71x cards on his website. Some of those should work.

Alternatively, you can use Unisound to initialize the card in pure DOS.

OMG! The original CD?!

And Unisound???

Do you recommend Unisound or should I stick to the Yamaha drivers?

Also, I prefer my Roland SCB-7 over my X2GS. So I have a header problem.

When I go, the smiles and the laughs go with me.

Reply 11 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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insanitor wrote on 2024-01-05, 00:26:
OMG! The original CD?! […]
Show full quote

OMG! The original CD?!

And Unisound???

Do you recommend Unisound or should I stick to the Yamaha drivers?

Also, I prefer my Roland SCB-7 over my X2GS. So I have a header problem.

I went with Yamaha's drivers simply because I like using the manufacturer's original software whenever possible. But Unisound is much easier to set up, and likely more reliable. Yamaha's official DOS drivers aren't exactly the pinnacle of stability. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Phil's Audician32 CD is intended for YMF718 cards, so you might need something slightly newer for your YMF719.

Note that YMF71x cards consist of two "parts" - SBPro and WSS. Configuring both of them in a satisfactory manner can get a bit tricky. I used James-F's instructions to set mine up a while back. Here's how that looks.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 12 of 18, by maxtherabbit

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-01-04, 09:32:

The AWE64 doesn't have hanging note bugs, but it does suffer from a different issue which is inherent to all SB16/AWE cards. The stuttering when high sample rates are used together with (external) MIDI playback. This is most evident in Duke3D, though a bunch of other games have the same problem on those cards.

I've never noticed any problem playing duke3d on stock settings using GM emulation on my AWE64. Does the issue only occur when using the physical UART? Or are these high sample rates something you have to select in the settings somewhere?

I've been hearing of this "stuttering bug" for years but I've yet to ever notice it in person, either when using the AWE GM emulation or when playing MT-32 games on my real physical MT-32, across several different SB16/AWE cards

Reply 13 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-01-05, 08:41:

I've never noticed any problem playing duke3d on stock settings using GM emulation on my AWE64. Does the issue only occur when using the physical UART?

It only happens when using a separate MIDI device, such as a Roland SC-55 (external) or a wavetable daughterboard (internal). The on-board AWE synth and any loaded soundfonts are unaffected by this issue.

Or are these high sample rates something you have to select in the settings somewhere?

High sample rates can be selected manually from setup in some games like Duke3D. Other games use them automatically, and you're not given a choice about it. Generally, newer DOS games (1994 and up) are the ones that utilize high sample rates, so anything from the MT-32 era is unlikely to be affected. More info about the stuttering issue can be found in this thread.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 14 of 18, by badmojo

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insanitor wrote on 2024-01-05, 00:26:

Do you recommend Unisound or should I stick to the Yamaha drivers?

Something I've noticed with Unisound is that it doesn't set the mixer in a way that allows games that manipulate the mixer for fake-stereo (like Wolf3d) to work. A fix for this mixer 'bug' is described here, but this is assumes the Yamaha software is used.

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Reply 15 of 18, by insanitor

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Guys, does Unisound have the driver for a daughterboard connected to the wavetable header of my Yamaha/Labway card?

When I go, the smiles and the laughs go with me.

Reply 16 of 18, by pc-sound-legacy

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insanitor wrote on 2024-01-28, 07:29:

Guys, does Unisound have the driver for a daughterboard connected to the wavetable header of my Yamaha/Labway card?

No additional driver needed for the opl3SAx card, unisound is all you need. See what resource the mpu401 gets, it is usually 330. In games you can select General Midi and this address (330) and you should hear music from your wavetable module.

Reply 17 of 18, by Pickle

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pc-sound-legacy wrote on 2024-01-30, 22:14:
insanitor wrote on 2024-01-28, 07:29:

Guys, does Unisound have the driver for a daughterboard connected to the wavetable header of my Yamaha/Labway card?

No additional driver needed for the opl3SAx card, unisound is all you need. See what resource the mpu401 gets, it is usually 330. In games you can select General Midi and this address (330) and you should hear music from your wavetable module.

make sure the volume for fm/synth is not zero /VF##

Reply 18 of 18, by insanitor

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I decided to go with the CT1740 and my PCMIDI card.

Thanks again guys!

When I go, the smiles and the laughs go with me.