kolderman wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:24:

Let's face it -- there will never be a perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

I believe the perfect combination of ISA sound cards is practically within reach . Orpheus + AWE64 (eventually AWE64 Legacy when available) + GUS (EDIT: Argus would be nice, but I already have some GUS PnP cards whose DMA will not work with my mainboard, GF1 DMA works fine) should cover pretty much everything .

I have this setup (which I plan to augment with an AWE64 Legacy, which should give the cleanest SB16 and EMU8000 possible).

Please say what you believe is missing or could be improved upon .

darry wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:42:

I believe the perfect combination of ISA sound cards is practically within reach . Orpheus + AWE64 (eventually AWE64 Legacy when […]
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kolderman wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:24:

Let's face it -- there will never be a perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

I believe the perfect combination of ISA sound cards is practically within reach . Orpheus + AWE64 (eventually AWE64 Legacy when available) + GUS (EDIT: Argus would be nice, but I already have some GUS PnP cards whose DMA will not work with my mainboard, GF1 DMA works fine) should cover pretty much everything .

I have this setup (which I plan to augment with an AWE64 Legacy, which should give the cleanest SB16 and EMU8000 possible).

Please say what you believe is missing or could be improved upon .

OPL3 through emu8k for reverb/chorus effects out over SPDIF. That's why I love my AWE32 CT3900.

kolderman wrote on 2020-12-03, 06:00:

darry wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:42:

I believe the perfect combination of ISA sound cards is practically within reach . Orpheus + AWE64 (eventually AWE64 Legacy when […]
Show full quote

kolderman wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:24:

Let's face it -- there will never be a perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

I believe the perfect combination of ISA sound cards is practically within reach . Orpheus + AWE64 (eventually AWE64 Legacy when available) + GUS (EDIT: Argus would be nice, but I already have some GUS PnP cards whose DMA will not work with my mainboard, GF1 DMA works fine) should cover pretty much everything .

I have this setup (which I plan to augment with an AWE64 Legacy, which should give the cleanest SB16 and EMU8000 possible).

Please say what you believe is missing or could be improved upon .

OPL3 through emu8k for reverb/chorus effects out over SPDIF. That's why I love my AWE32 CT3900.

That can be nice, if you want effects on your OPL3 . I tend to prefer mine dry . If I ever change my mind, I can always run the Orpheus OPL3 output over S/PDIF into an external FX processor (like the on in my VS-880EX), or through my SB Live! FX engine .

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-12-03, 00:05:

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-02, 21:53:

Oddly enough, I haven't really found any game that didn't work properly with the SB16 if I selected SB Pro. I know there's a difference in quality but I haven't really noticed anything weird so far and I've tested over 300 games.

Aladdin is one such game.

It can't play stereo music with a SB16 but does so with a SBPro or WSS.

Doesn't Aladdin have the SB16 option? I love the music & sound in Aladdin. I'll need to check it out.

And don't get me wrong: I don't need SB16 support persé, I just recall quite a few games going from regular Sound Blaster (Compatible) to Sound Blaster 16 in the options with no Pro option - since I always had a SB16 I'm not sure what quality differences there might be because of this.

I'll probably take the leap and buy one anyway if only because I might stick it in another retro PC I intend to build.

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-02, 22:24:

I wonder if I can get the seller to add a second 3.5-to-MIDI dongle though since I need one for my MT-32 and SC55.

There's only one 3.5 MIDI slot on the card. You can either connect a single expander on the card and the other to it using MIDI passthru, or if you really want both devices to be simultaneously connected to the card you can either build your own gameport-MIDI connector or order a DB15MIDI from Serdashop with a regular MIDI cable instead.

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-03, 09:21:

Doesn't Aladdin have the SB16 option?

It does, but as noted before, it won't play stereo music using that option. You get dual mono instead (same sound on both speakers).

Check the thread that I linked to. It contains music samples recorded using the SB16, SBPro and WSS setup options. You may need to listen to them using headphones to notice the difference.

SquallStrife wrote on 2020-12-03, 03:30:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBNmt9Tz6VY

Nice work, lads! 😁

On Blerbs, "a channel that exists mostly so that I can upload random crap that pops into my head".
I didn't feel that it was appreciated much, or did justice to the card. I don't know about you guys.

konc wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:01:

On Blerbs, "a channel that exists mostly so that I can upload random crap that pops into my head".
I didn't feel that it was appreciated much, or did justice to the card. I don't know about you guys.

Same.

I wish he had showcased some of the more interesting features of the card in more depth. How about demonstrating MPU-401 intelligent mode with an MT-32? Or maybe the improved sound clarity that WSS provides in compatible games? For such a long video, there's surprisingly little useful information in it.

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-02, 20:53:

My priorities are something like this: 1) compatibility with DOS games in general, from old to new 2) OPL3 support 3) lack of ha […]
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Boohyaka wrote on 2020-12-02, 20:35:

I'm afraid you got confused somewhere...the Orpheus is not SB16 compatible. It's SB/SBPro/WSS compatible.
As for quality, it's subjective but it's probably the quietest/cleanest card I own, and I own a few.

My priorities are something like this:
1) compatibility with DOS games in general, from old to new
2) OPL3 support
3) lack of hanging note bugs (I use a SC55 and MT-32 and those bugs make them sound terrible)
4) actual sound clarity including the lack of the typical popping you get on some SB16 cards (I use a ground loop filter that cleans up the noise anyway - I get very good sound out of my current SB16)
5) driver stability & memory usage (no use having drivers that make it impossible to run certain games)

Audician and Orpheus seem to have 2, 3 and 4 in the bag but Audician was crap at 1 & 5 with very spotty compatibility and its drivers behaving oddly (especially the mixer) - it did have very low memory usage which was about the most positive thing I could mention.

I can live with some noise and popping if all the rest OK (I grew up with those flaws so to me they're "authentic" if that makes sense). I can NOT live with a crystal clear sounding card if it means sacrificing compatibility with a good chunk of games sadly. My apologies if I sound overly negative but I spent over €100 on the Audician 32 after people on this forum recommended it to me only to find out it had massive compatibility issues and it turned out most people only tested it on the typical big titles like Doom or Duke 3D which every card under the sun works on.

My problem with the Audician is the volume control, which never seems right when mixing stuff like Midi or CD music with SFX. Compatibility-wise I didn't really encounter any problems.
Right now I'm thinking about if the Orpheus is worth 180€ for me, when I paid like 30 for the Audician and can use SoftMPU. Also still have to read through all the comments, to see what you guys have to say about it.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:11:

konc wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:01:

On Blerbs, "a channel that exists mostly so that I can upload random crap that pops into my head".
I didn't feel that it was appreciated much, or did justice to the card. I don't know about you guys.

Same.

I wish he had showcased some of the more interesting features of the card in more depth. How about demonstrating MPU-401 intelligent mode with an MT-32? Or maybe the improved sound clarity that WSS provides in compatible games? For such a long video, there's surprisingly little useful information in it.

I loved seeing the vids from both RMC and LGR, but I didn't feel that either of them hit all the points of the card. For example I think that having two separately addressable MIDI processors routable to three possible outputs is kind of a big deal, but I didn't see that covered. Maybe that doesn't excite everyone, or maybe they just weren't aware of that particular detail.

As for being on Blerbs, that could be a time availability thing, as there is far less production & editing required for the vlog style vids. They still get tons of views.

Boohyaka wrote on 2020-12-03, 09:43:

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-02, 22:24:

I wonder if I can get the seller to add a second 3.5-to-MIDI dongle though since I need one for my MT-32 and SC55.

There's only one 3.5 MIDI slot on the card. You can either connect a single expander on the card and the other to it using MIDI passthru, or if you really want both devices to be simultaneously connected to the card you can either build your own gameport-MIDI connector or order a DB15MIDI from Serdashop with a regular MIDI cable instead.

I already have the DB15MIDI but I want to move to 3.5 because if you ever used the DB15MIDI, you know it's not exactly a very tight connection - it's VERY easy to dislodge when you move wires around the back. I have a 3.5 splitter that would allow me to output two signals so a second cable would be the ideal connection. Also, it looks a bit tidier since there's no exposed circuit boards.

Pierre32 wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:45:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:11:

Same.

I wish he had showcased some of the more interesting features of the card in more depth. How about demonstrating MPU-401 intelligent mode with an MT-32? Or maybe the improved sound clarity that WSS provides in compatible games? For such a long video, there's surprisingly little useful information in it.

I loved seeing the vids from both RMC and LGR, but I didn't feel that either of them hit all the points of the card. For example I think that having two separately addressable MIDI processors routable to three possible outputs is kind of a big deal, but I didn't see that covered. Maybe that doesn't excite everyone, or maybe they just weren't aware of that particular detail.

As for being on Blerbs, that could be a time availability thing, as there is far less production & editing required for the vlog style vids. They still get tons of views.

Both did mention and explain it - RMC more than LGR - but for most DOS enthusiasts, OPL3 will probably be the main go-to chip.

I was surprised to see it on Blerbs as well - maybe he felt that this is too niche a product for his main channel but for any real DOS enthusiast, this card should be a big deal. Finding a solid sound card is one of the biggest obstacles you have since pretty much every card has flaws.

Terracresta wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:14:

My problem with the Audician is the volume control, which never seems right when mixing stuff like Midi or CD music with SFX. Compatibility-wise I didn't really encounter any problems.
Right now I'm thinking about if the Orpheus is worth 180€ for me, when I paid like 30 for the Audician and can use SoftMPU. Also still have to read through all the comments, to see what you guys have to say about it.

Well I disliked the Audician so you won't find a lot of support for that from my side 😉 But the volume control was a problem for me on the Audician as well. My SB16 holds its volume very well between reboots while the Audician often needed me to run the mixer program before it would do so - and with run, I mean actually open the GUI, save and exit. There seemed to be a bug in how it remembered previous settings.

I hope the Orpheus is better at least in this respect. Some games will always require different settings - BASS for example has very quiet audio compared to music but normally I set SFX to 90% (to avoid noise), MIDI and CD to 60%.

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-02, 21:16:

Well here's a few the Audician had problems with: […]
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Well here's a few the Audician had problems with:

Duke Nukem 3D: slow down during playing of sounds (could be fixed by dropping sound quality to 11khz I recall but made it sound terrible)
Cannon Fodder 1 & 2 - would either crash in setup or not detect sound at all
Pinball Illusions (no sound)
Pizza Tycoon (no sound or music)
UFO Enemy Unknown (no sound)
Innocent Until Caught ("sound card not initialized")
Battle Isle 1 (would crash during the 3D combat scene - I thought it was the graphics card but it was the sound card ... go figure)
Heart of China (error sound card interrupt already in use) - I believe this is caused by the Audician also using a Windows media sound thing that conflicted
Dune: speech only from left channel
Warcraft 2: CD audio keeps restarting and crash after first level

These are the problems I still had logged - I replaced my data when I replaced the sound card with a SB16 which fixed all of the above's issues.

I have some of these in my 200mx system:

Duke Nukem 3D: no slowdowns with 44100hz selected
Cannon Fodder 1 : could never run this well on this system - setup detects and beeps with SBPRO, after L1 cache disabling the intro works but the main game always crashed for me with any soundcard in this system edit: confirmed working on 386DX , game is speed sensitive and does not like more than 16mb of ram
Pinball Illusions: no problem
Pizza Tycoon: no problem
UFO Enemy Unknown: no problem
Innocent Until Caught: game loads CT-VOICE.DRV , it works fine - double checked with dosbox and it is the same because I could not trigger a SFX to play , where are they used?
Heart of China: it's OK after L1 cache disabling
Dune: I have no idea how to trigger speech - have the floppy version

hope this helps!

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-02, 21:16:

Well here's a few the Audician had problems with: […]
Show full quote

Well here's a few the Audician had problems with:

Duke Nukem 3D: slow down during playing of sounds (could be fixed by dropping sound quality to 11khz I recall but made it sound terrible)
Cannon Fodder 1 & 2 - would either crash in setup or not detect sound at all
Pinball Illusions (no sound)
Pizza Tycoon (no sound or music)
UFO Enemy Unknown (no sound)
Innocent Until Caught ("sound card not initialized")
Battle Isle 1 (would crash during the 3D combat scene - I thought it was the graphics card but it was the sound card ... go figure)
Heart of China (error sound card interrupt already in use) - I believe this is caused by the Audician also using a Windows media sound thing that conflicted
Dune: speech only from left channel
Warcraft 2: CD audio keeps restarting and crash after first level

These are the problems I still had logged - I replaced my data when I replaced the sound card with a SB16 which fixed all of the above's issues.

Isn't Audician a YMF71x card at the end of the day? I use YMF 71x cards in a lot of PCs and can easily tell you that I am 100% sure half of the stuff on that list is wrong, you are either using a wrong DOS driver or your card is fucked.

kolderman wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:24:

Let's face it -- there will never be a perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

This is the perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

appiah4 wrote on 2020-12-03, 12:37:

This is the perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

I would say it's 99% there. The lack of ADPCM might bother people whose favorite game in the world is Duke Nukem 2. And there are a couple of games like Crusader: No Remorse which actually do benefit from a SB16 but don't support WSS.

Those are fringe cases though. IMO, the other benefits that the Orpheus provides by far outweigh these minuscule issues.

appiah4 wrote on 2020-12-03, 12:37:

kolderman wrote on 2020-12-03, 04:24:

Let's face it -- there will never be a perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

This is the perfect ISA sound card for DOS.

Agreed wholeheartedly 😀 maybe not *perfect* to be pedantic, but nothing gets this close, that's for sure.

I mean, to each its own and I'm not judging, but kolderman mentioned the EMU8K chorus/reverb on OPL3 which is a weird criteria to me. The Orpheus ticks all the right boxes for what I'm personally after.

red_avatar wrote on 2020-12-03, 11:56:

Both did mention and explain it - RMC more than LGR - but for most DOS enthusiasts, OPL3 will probably be the main go-to chip.

You're right - RMC did go into it a little more. I would have enjoyed seeing this flexibility demonstrated in more detail, for example showing how you can configure two games to drive different MIDI devices, and jump between them without having to do any config or cabling changes.

But I'm sure this is just a case of deep track nerds never being satisfied by a review of the thing they're into 😉 All this aside I was really happy to see the vids today, and I'm stoked for the team.

There is one thing that I feel I should mention: both ORPHINIT and UNISOUND have no memory-resident functionality. CWDINIT does leave a small configuration manager resident before exiting, however. As has been stated a number of times, these are really configuration and initialisation tools more than drivers; everything the Orpheus does, it does fully in hardware. There is no need for any resident software kludges to make it functional, or provide compatibility or features that are not actually present on the board. This means that there should be no concerns about memory-hogging TSRs or drivers, compatibility problems with memory managers or similar issues.