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Reply 100 of 254, by Kahenraz

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That's interesting. On my regular (non-Dell) version, I always have to follow the guide exactly add the SB16 emulation, as the first one entry in Device Manager always has the yellow exclamation mark.

Reply 101 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Pino wrote on 2022-08-17, 20:20:

I can confirm that it works with the Dell's Audigy 2 ZS ( 3 white labels on the back and serial number containing SB358...), I didn't have to do anything different from the guide.

Cheers! I wasn't sure that it would, since the OEM version of the ZS is supposedly slightly different. Nice to have confirmation that it does though!

The only odd thing is that when I installed the DOS drivers I got a functional SB16 emulation on my device manager and the one I added manually after was the one with a yellow bang, other than that I followed all the steps as is.

Interesting. Out of curiosity, did the SB16 emulation work with just the one functional device? This might be yet another difference between the Dell/OEM ZS cards and the retail ones from Creative.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 102 of 254, by Pino

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That is a good question, I haven't tried it with just the first SB16 emulation, I will try later today to remove the one with a yellow bang and see what happens.

I noticed a lot of clicking noise on DOTT, both running from win98 and pure DOS, I wonder if the SB16 is more susceptible to games with single DMA.

I'm not sure if the rest of my system has any influence over that.

I'm using a Dell XPS R400 (slot 1 440BX), 2x128MB PC100, Pentium II 400Mhz, Geforce 2 MX200
I don't have many BIOS options, my Audigy was assigned IRQ 10.

Reply 103 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Pino wrote on 2022-08-18, 13:51:

That is a good question, I haven't tried it with just the first SB16 emulation, I will try later today to remove the one with a yellow bang and see what happens.

Thanks, let us know how it turns out. BTW, the step with adding a second SB16 device is only necessary on Audigy2 and ZS cards. The emulation works without that on SBLive and Audigy1 cards.

I noticed a lot of clicking noise on DOTT, both running from win98 and pure DOS, I wonder if the SB16 is more susceptible to games with single DMA.

I'm not sure if the rest of my system has any influence over that.

I don't think your system is the issue here. The SB16 emulation on SBLive and Audigy cards is imperfect and some games simply cannot work correctly with it.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 104 of 254, by Kahenraz

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Can you provide a short list of games that have problems with legacy emulation on the PCI Sound Blasters (I assume they are all the same)? Is it any better when choosing SB16 vs SBPro options? This is relevant, as only the Creative PCI cards can emulate SB16, and all other competitors only emulate SBPro.

Reply 105 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Kahenraz wrote on 2022-08-18, 15:03:

Can you provide a short list of games that have problems with legacy emulation on the PCI Sound Blasters (I assume they are all the same)?

I don't have a comprehensive list, just a few games that I tested myself. It's not the same with all PCI sound cards since they use different methods for emulation. These are the games which I had problems with on SBLive/Audigy cards:

  • Quake
  • Tyrian
  • WarCraft
  • WarCraft 2

Is it any better when choosing SB16 vs SBPro options?

I don't think I've ever tested that, since I always used SB16 when playing games on SBLive/Audigy cards.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 106 of 254, by Kahenraz

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Can you be more specific as to what the problems are for these games? I would like to familiarize myself with the problem use case. What would I look for, specifically? Is it digital sound, Redbook audio, Adlib, etc.

Reply 107 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Kahenraz wrote on 2022-08-18, 15:11:

Can you be more specific as to what the problems are for these games? I would like to familiarize myself with the problem use case. What would I look for, specifically? Is it digital sound, Redbook audio, Adlib, etc.

Quake, WarCraft and WarCraft 2 - digital audio crackles and cuts off occasionally.
Tyrian - digital audio doesn't work, game hangs if it is enabled.

BTW, I mostly tested DOS games from within Win9x on SBLive/Audigy cards since I wanted to make use of soundfonts. Some of this behavior might be different in pure DOS.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 109 of 254, by Pino

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-18, 14:05:

Thanks, let us know how it turns out. BTW, the step with adding a second SB16 device is only necessary on Audigy2 and ZS cards. The emulation works without that on SBLive and Audigy1 cards.

I removed the SB16 emulation with the yellow bang and everything still works fine, both in Windows and pure DOS.

I have another Audigy 2, I believe is also a Dell or some other O&M model, it's an odd one.

It also has 3 white stickers, PN SB350 printed on the PCB, on the SN it has a SB353 number.
It doesn't have the joystick/spdif or front panel connectors
Only says Audigy 2 without the ZS on the PCB
It does have a firewire connector, but the 3,5mm connectors are not gold plated.
I will try it when I have some time

Reply 110 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Pino wrote on 2022-08-19, 01:14:

I removed the SB16 emulation with the yellow bang and everything still works fine, both in Windows and pure DOS.

Very interesting. It looks like the OEM/Dell ZS model behaves like an Audigy1 in this aspect, which is actually more desirable from a retro gaming standpoint.

Can you check one more thing please. If you open volume control, does the "CD Digital" slider show up? It might be hidden by default, so you may need to unhide it first.

file.php?id=113800&mode=view

I have another Audigy 2, I believe is also a Dell or some other O&M model, it's an odd one.

If you end up testing that one as well, let us know how it went.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 112 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Pino wrote on 2022-08-19, 02:36:

I do not have the "CD Digital" and it's not available to unhide on properties. Keep in mind that I don't have an optical drive attached at the sound card currently, not sure if it makes any difference.

Too bad, I was hoping the bug might not be present on the Dell card, since it behaves differently with regards to SB16 emulation.

Basically, the "CD Digital" slider is missing on ZS cards when using VxD drivers under Win9x. It is present on regular (non-ZS) Audigy 2 and Audigy 1 cards when using the exact same drivers. This matters if you want to connect your CD-ROM drive to the card using a SPDIF cable. The slider should be there regardless of whether the drive is actually connected or not.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 114 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Kahenraz wrote on 2022-08-19, 04:25:

I don't think you can have CD digital audio without using the WDM drivers.this feature is disabled otherwise.

There are two ways to get digital CD audio. One which uses the internal IDE bus and another which uses a SPDIF cable going from the CD-ROM drive to the CD_SPDIF header on the sound card. The former needs WDM drivers, but the latter doesn't. More details in this thread.

As I've already mentioned, when using VxD drivers Audigy 2 (non-ZS), Audigy 1 and even SBLive cards do have the "CD Digital" slider and it works correctly when using a SPDIF cable. Only the ZS card doesn't have the "CD Digital" slider when VxD drivers are used.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 115 of 254, by Pino

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Tested the other card today, and I can say that every single variation behaves different.

Again, this an Audigy 2 SB350, you can see on the attached pictures that the layout, caps position really matches the SB350 Audigy 2 ZS.
It has 3 white labels on the back and a SB353 in the serial number, so most likely another O&M card.

For some reason this one doesn't have the "ZS" logo, but it's definitely not a regular SB240.

It doesn't have the connectors at the back of the card and it doesn't have golden plated connector.

During the installation I got the yellow bang SB16 emulation and I had to manually add a second one to make it work, so up to this point it behaves exactly like the Creative SB350 Audigy 2 ZS.

On the device manager I only have Audigy Audio processor and the 2 SB16 emulations, no Audigy gameport or joystick emulation, probably due to the missing connectors at the rear of the card.

What is really different is that with this one I got CD Digital on the volume control.

I hope this is useful information

Ps.: not my pictures, but it matches the tested card so I attached for illustration

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Reply 116 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Pino wrote on 2022-08-20, 03:06:
During the installation I got the yellow bang SB16 emulation and I had to manually add a second one to make it work, so up to th […]
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During the installation I got the yellow bang SB16 emulation and I had to manually add a second one to make it work, so up to this point it behaves exactly like the Creative SB350 Audigy 2 ZS.

On the device manager I only have Audigy Audio processor and the 2 SB16 emulations, no Audigy gameport or joystick emulation, probably due to the missing connectors at the rear of the card.

What is really different is that with this one I got CD Digital on the volume control.

I hope this is useful information

Cheers! That behavior matches how a retail Audigy 2 (non-ZS) handles the installation process. I'm guessing the card that you have is some OEM variety of an Audigy 2, despite the SB0350 model number. The lack of the ZS marking on the card itself also points that way, but I can't say for sure.

Anyway, this is indeed useful information since it proves that the guide does work with OEM cards. Thanks again for testing this so thoroughly!

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 117 of 254, by Pino

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-20, 05:16:

Cheers! That behavior matches how a retail Audigy 2 (non-ZS) handles the installation process. I'm guessing the card that you have is some OEM variety of an Audigy 2, despite the SB0350 model number. The lack of the ZS marking on the card itself also points that way, but I can't say for sure.

Yes, I guess it is a non ZS, but as I said the filtering part of the card, the capacitors quantity and position matches the SB350 ZS, so I guess the audio quality should be closer to the ZS than the retail non ZS SB240.

Anyway, I'm now trying to figure out how to have an Audigy 2 ZS and an ISA sound card at the same system, any advice would be appreciate.

I have an Aztech 2320 (HP card), that has great FM synth, real OPL3, but terrible digital sound.

I wonder how can I use the FM synth from this card for music and the SB16 emulation on the ZS to handle sound effects.

Thanks in advance

Reply 118 of 254, by Joseph_Joestar

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Pino wrote on 2022-08-20, 13:45:

Anyway, I'm now trying to figure out how to have an Audigy 2 ZS and an ISA sound card at the same system, any advice would be appreciate.

This should be doable, as long as the cards use different resources. For example, if you set the ISA sound card to A220, I5, D1, P330 and the Audigy to A240, I7, D3, H7, P300 it should be fine.

To change the Audigy's resources, right click on My Computer > Properties > Device Manager > Sound, Video and Game Controllers > Creative SB16 Emulation > Properties > Resources and uncheck "Use automatic settings". Then, choose "Basic Configuration 0002" > Change Setting.

You may also need to move or disable the adlib port on the Audigy card. There's a patched file by @crvs here which can move adlib to a different address. Otherwise, if you want to disable adlib completely, simply choose "Basic Configuration 0004" in Device Manager, but that might disable some other resources as well.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 119 of 254, by Pino

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I got everything working under Windows 98, using @crvs patch.
I can select AdLib port 388 or Soundblaster on port 220 for music and it will use my Aztech card for FM synth sending sound through it's line out to Audigy's line in.
For sound effects and General MIDI I select the Audigy SB16 emulation on 260/7/3/7/320.

But for Pure DOS is a different story,
both cards are been initialized correctly Aztech on 220/5/1, SB emulation on 260/7/3/7/320.
But regardless of what I do the FM synth is still coming from the SB emulation.
Another thing I notice is that Line in on the Audigy doesn't seem to be working on DOS and you can't control it through SBEMIXER.

Any advice is welcome.
Thanks