There's the wozblaster (opl4), but it's for msx...

How about the xfm2 ?
https://www.futur3soundz.com/xfm2

https://international.switch-science.com/catalog/3399/

Currently out-of-stock, but official Yamaha product...

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-22, 07:00:

How about the xfm2 ?

Interesting project, but looks like the author only made it on prototyping board and not routed any PCB. Also, i thought about a synth, which would use a Yamaha chip, not FPGA. The custom implementation of FM synthesis means, that instruments made for Yamaha chips cannot be used and i need to make instruments from scratch, 6op instruments are hard to work with. Also, looks like it don't have instrument editor for computer.

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-22, 10:30:

https://international.switch-science.com/catalog/3399/

Currently out-of-stock, but official Yamaha product...

I know about this one, but the problem is that this is only FM chip prototyping board. For MIDI it need a microcontroller with firmware. Of course, on the official Yamaha GitHub the tone generator sample module can be found, but i'm afraid, that its MIDI implementation would be too "quick and dirty" and many MIDIs can't be played on it correctly. Also, the firmware available only as source, not as binaries.

Talking_Sword wrote on 2020-07-22, 12:52:

Interesting project, but looks like the author only made it on prototyping board and not routed any PCB. Also, i thought about a […]
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cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-22, 07:00:

How about the xfm2 ?

Interesting project, but looks like the author only made it on prototyping board and not routed any PCB. Also, i thought about a synth, which would use a Yamaha chip, not FPGA. The custom implementation of FM synthesis means, that instruments made for Yamaha chips cannot be used and i need to make instruments from scratch, 6op instruments are hard to work with. Also, looks like it don't have instrument editor for computer.

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-22, 10:30:

https://international.switch-science.com/catalog/3399/

Currently out-of-stock, but official Yamaha product...

I know about this one, but the problem is that this is only FM chip prototyping board. For MIDI it need a microcontroller with firmware. Of course, on the official Yamaha GitHub the tone generator sample module can be found, but i'm afraid, that its MIDI implementation would be too "quick and dirty" and many MIDIs can't be played on it correctly. Also, the firmware available only as source, not as binaries.

I'm not entirely sure what you want is actually possible with FM chips. Generally, patches needs to be adapted to the specific FM chip used, as there is no generalized MIDI format for FM (it's not like with General MIDI). Even when using vintage Yamaha FM modules from the same family, patches cannot always be moved from one synth to another without changing some settings.

What exact Yamaha chip are you wanting this synth to have?

And why do you need it to be a DIY build?

Basically what is asked for does not exist, someone needs to make such a thing first. There are various things using various Yamaha FM chips but none of them fulfill the requirements listed.

So like a MIDIbox FM except with at least 3x YMF262 chips instead of just one? That would be one crazy setup.
http://www.ucapps.de/index.html?page=midibox_fm.html

But is OPL3 what the OP wants, or something better like the DX7II series?`

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-22, 15:08:

Even when using vintage Yamaha FM modules from the same family, patches cannot always be moved from one synth to another without changing some settings.

Yamaha had two "main" families of FM chips - OPM\OPN and OPL. All OPN chips have the same set of FM parameters and their patches are compatible with each other. OPM FM parameters are mostly same as OPN, only differs by some rarely used parameters and its patches can be easily converted to OPN and vice-versa.

OPL was initially a low-cost FM chip with only two operators and less precise FM parameters. In OPL2 the ability to use other waveforms than sine was added. OPL3 added new waveforms and 4OP mode. All OPL patches are backwards-compatible.

There are also MA family of soundchips used in cellphones. If i recall correctly, they have OPL3-like FM parameters. So, in theory, the OPL3 patches can be converted for this line of soundchips.

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-22, 15:43:

And why do you need it to be a DIY build?

I do not know any commercially produced GM-compatible FM synths. Even if such thing exist, in will cost too much.

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-22, 15:43:

What exact Yamaha chip are you wanting this synth to have?

YMU762 (MA-3) would be ideal, but there are very little information about it, because of that, there almost no projects, that use it. There are one project based on YMU762 (the page in Russian, but you can use the machine translation), but it don't have MIDI in and can only play SMAF or MIDI file from microcontroller memory. The author of this project said me, that, in theory, the MIDI in can be added. But my programming skills sucks, and i can't do that. Also, the instrument bank loading for MIDI is also needs to be added, otherwise MIDI will be playing only with built-in (2OP and not very good sounding) instrument bank.

More realistic option is YMF825 (SD-1). But only project i was able to found is this. But it's only a sample code, not a full-fledged synthesizer project, as i earlier said, i'm afraid, that its MIDI implementation would be too "quick and dirty". Also, i don't know, if there any instrument editor for this.

Most realistic option would be dual YMF262 (OPL3).

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-23, 04:44:

So like a MIDIbox FM except with at least 3x YMF262 chips instead of just one? That would be one crazy setup.
http://www.ucapps.de/index.html?page=midibox_fm.html

I thought, that MIDIbox FM support only one OPL3 chip. I'm a litte confused, it's possible to connect more than 1 OPL3 chip to MIDIbox?

Talking_Sword wrote on 2020-07-23, 07:05:

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-22, 15:08:

Even when using vintage Yamaha FM modules from the same family, patches cannot always be moved from one synth to another without changing some settings.

Yamaha had two "main" families of FM chips - OPM\OPN and OPL. All OPN chips have the same set of FM parameters and their patches are compatible with each other. OPM FM parameters are mostly same as OPN, only differs by some rarely used parameters and its patches can be easily converted to OPN and vice-versa.

Well, yes, the chips. The synths themselves, not so much, since settings supported depend on the firmware chips and MIDI implementation. Some modules are preset-only or limited MIDI, good luck with getting patches transferred on those...

OPL was initially a low-cost FM chip with only two operators and less precise FM parameters. In OPL2 the ability to use other wa […]
Show full quote

OPL was initially a low-cost FM chip with only two operators and less precise FM parameters. In OPL2 the ability to use other waveforms than sine was added. OPL3 added new waveforms and 4OP mode. All OPL patches are backwards-compatible.

There are also MA family of soundchips used in cellphones. If i recall correctly, they have OPL3-like FM parameters. So, in theory, the OPL3 patches can be converted for this line of soundchips.

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-22, 15:43:

And why do you need it to be a DIY build?

I do not know any commercially produced GM-compatible FM synths. Even if such thing exist, in will cost too much.

Yamaha General MIDI-to-FM driver for Windows 9x.

YMU762 (MA-3) would be ideal, but there are very little information about it, because of that, there almost no projects, that us […]
Show full quote

cyclone3d wrote on 2020-07-22, 15:43:

What exact Yamaha chip are you wanting this synth to have?

YMU762 (MA-3) would be ideal, but there are very little information about it, because of that, there almost no projects, that use it. There are one project based on YMU762 (the page in Russian, but you can use the machine translation), but it don't have MIDI in and can only play SMAF or MIDI file from microcontroller memory. The author of this project said me, that, in theory, the MIDI in can be added. But my programming skills sucks, and i can't do that. Also, the instrument bank loading for MIDI is also needs to be added, otherwise MIDI will be playing only with built-in (2OP and not very good sounding) instrument bank.

More realistic option is YMF825 (SD-1). But only project i was able to found is this. But it's only a sample code, not a full-fledged synthesizer project, as i earlier said, i'm afraid, that its MIDI implementation would be too "quick and dirty". Also, i don't know, if there any instrument editor for this.

Most realistic option would be dual YMF262 (OPL3).

If it's a DIY project, you won't be getting away from programming a MIDI interface and/or modifying the electronics of the device used.

So getting back to your requirements:

Requirements: […]
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Requirements:

1. At least 16-voice polyphony in four-operator mode.
2. Ability to change instruments banks (the instruments bank format must be editable on computer).
3. Ability to switch to two-operator mode to double the polyphony.
4. Ability to use other waveforms than sine.

Not mentioned, but inferred from your other posts:

5. MIDI

Options (in my eyes):

- There are some Yamaha Portatone keyboards that effectively are 2+2 operator FM (some say 4-operator, but the chips used are a bit obscure). Some of them have basic MIDI (needs circuitbending/hacking to enable more). 16-voice polyphony might be possible on the high-end models (can be expensive...), but likely is limited to less than that.
- Yamaha TX-81Z and related. Again, polyphony might be a problem. No explicit switching to two-operator mode AFAIK, but if you mute two operators the effect is the same (whether that doubles polyphony I don't know...). The other requirements are possible, but IIRC the best option for editing the patches might require a very old editor that can only run in an emulator on modern hardware.
- Yamaha FB01. Of course, it's more limited that the TX-81Z and related.
- Korg 707, which is a keyboard FB01 with subtractive-style editing. I'm not sure whether FB-01-compatible games' MIDIs can be played on it via MIDI...
- YMF825 (SD-1), but as you say it's very (too?) DIY.
- Yamaha Reface DX, which despite the name is a 4-operator synth. It probably can do everything you want, but of course is expensive: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_product … e/dx/index.html. For hand-on editing, there is a third-party control module: http://www.dtronics.nl/pages/dtrdx.html (which is also expensive).

And the last one brings us to the real problem with your requirements: They must be in a easy-to-use package that is cheap. I'm afraid that does not exist.

All those old Yamaha keyboards and modules are not easy to find in Russia, and even if i manage to find one in Russia, it will be most likely overpriced (compered to what it cost abroad). Even abroad, they will be likely not cheap, also, the keyboards are bulky and heavy, so the shipping cost likely will be more than keyboard cost itself. Also, i'm not a musician, because of that, the keyboard will be useless to me.

Also, the Yamaha TX-81Z and FB01 have only 8-voice polyphony.

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-23, 07:49:

- YMF825 (SD-1), but as you say it's very (too?) DIY.

I don't said it's "too DIY", i said, that looks like no one wrote a good firmware and instrument editor, so i need to write my own firmware and instrument editor. But i absolutely bad at programming.

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-23, 07:49:

And the last one brings us to the real problem with your requirements: They must be in a easy-to-use package that is cheap. I'm afraid that does not exist.

No, i not mean, that it need to be in a easy-to-use package, i mean, that it shouldn't require the programming skills from me. I can etch the PCB. I can solder electronic components to it. I can even route the PCB (i hate PCB routing, but i can try to do it, if PCB files unavailable). But i can't write the firmware. I will, most likely, even have problems building it from sources.

Again, i repeat the question, it is possible to connect more than 1 OPL3 chip to MIDIbox? I not found any info on it on uCApps.

Pretty sure the stock MIDIbox setup and code would have to be modified to support more than one OPL3. I've though about building one before but never got around to it... too much other stuff always going on.

The weak documentation for the YMU762 is a real shame, it could be a lovely synth for homebrew computers. It's certainly better than the YMF825.

Talking_Sword wrote on 2020-07-23, 09:14:

I don't said it's "too DIY", i said, that looks like no one wrote a good firmware and instrument editor, so i need to write my o […]
Show full quote

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-23, 07:49:

- YMF825 (SD-1), but as you say it's very (too?) DIY.

I don't said it's "too DIY", i said, that looks like no one wrote a good firmware and instrument editor, so i need to write my own firmware and instrument editor. But i absolutely bad at programming.

yawetaG wrote on 2020-07-23, 07:49:

And the last one brings us to the real problem with your requirements: They must be in a easy-to-use package that is cheap. I'm afraid that does not exist.

No, i not mean, that it need to be in a easy-to-use package, i mean, that it shouldn't require the programming skills from me. I can etch the PCB. I can solder electronic components to it. I can even route the PCB (i hate PCB routing, but i can try to do it, if PCB files unavailable). But i can't write the firmware. I will, most likely, even have problems building it from sources.

Use an Arduino or a Raspberry Pi instead. Both have extensive online communities that can help you program it.

I'm not sure, how the Arduino can help me with programming. It's just a development board for a AVR microcontroller. Also, my musical abilities sucks just like the programming skills. To create musical synthesizer firmware, knowledge of musical theory most likely needed.

Error 0x7CF wrote on 2020-07-23, 18:14:

The weak documentation for the YMU762 is a real shame, it could be a lovely synth for homebrew computers. It's certainly better than the YMF825.

Agree!

Talking_Sword wrote on 2020-07-24, 04:51:

I'm not sure, how the Arduino can help me with programming. It's just a development board for a AVR microcontroller. Also, my musical abilities sucks just like the programming skills. To create musical synthesizer firmware, knowledge of musical theory most likely needed.

Probably much less than you'd think. Most programming languages have many modules written by other people than the developers of the programming language, which make it fairly easy to add functionality even if you yourself lack the extensive knowledge required to write such a package. For example, most popular languages (e.g. Python, Perl) have MIDI modules available, that make it possible to add MIDI interfacing functionality to your program.

As for the Arduino, the starter kit includes a few music-related projects...and if you look around on the official community you will find many more music-related things. With these kind of development boards you can use the provided input and output pins to control other devices...

The gist of it: If you want to have something that currently does not exist, you need to put in some of the work yourself. It's not going to drop in your lap out of thin air.

No, it definitely exist. Some time ago (prior to making this thread) i found this. The video description says:

MIDIbox FM V2.0 is a homebrew 36-voice FM synthesizer based on two Yamaha OPL3 (YMF262) sound chips

The video description even have a link, but i unable to find firmware and PCB files for this. I'm afraid, that the v1.x was open-source, and newer versions become closed-source, and only way to get it, is to order it somewere.

Talking_Sword wrote on 2020-07-25, 07:26:

No, it definitely exist. Some time ago (prior to making this thread) i found this. The video description says:

MIDIbox FM V2.0 is a homebrew 36-voice FM synthesizer based on two Yamaha OPL3 (YMF262) sound chips

The video description even have a link, but i unable to find firmware and PCB files for this. I'm afraid, that the v1.x was open-source, and newer versions become closed-source, and only way to get it, is to order it somewere.

Yet, two OPL3 chips only provide 36 2-operator voices (or 12 4-op voices and 12 2-op voices), which is below your requirement of 16-voice polyphony with 4-operator voices. You can't get more than 6 4-op voices per OPL3, so you need at least three of them to get 16 voices.

Oh, my bad. For some reason, i always thought, that OPL3 can do 9-voice polyphony in 4OP mode, 18 in 2OP or 6 2OP + 6 4OP.

Now i read Wikipedia article thoroughly and turn out, that the number of 4OP channels cannot be greater than 6. This sucks 🙁.

But, can be MIDIbox FM V2.0 firmware and PCB files found somewhere?