VOGONS


First post, by mattw

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Let me begin with explaining what I mean by "elaborate hoax" - I see those cards are circulating in the last 1-2 years or so and are sold as "1991 NOS" (i.e. New Old Stock from 1991), I first encounter such card in the blog here:

https://gameroomramblings.com/2021/11/30/midi … with-a-mdr-401/

while searching about some MPU-401 information due to my interest in this:

MAME Roland MPU-401 Emulator

Anyway, I digress and so why "elaborate hoax" - while someone tried really very hard to make them look like NOS from 1991, i.e. all the basic logic chips are with date codes from 1991, many things raised my suspicions looking at more and more pictures of those cards, even to the extend questioning if such card has even existed in reality in the past or someone invented in the recent years.

So, I am attaching couple pictures of those cards - you most likely will need to use GIMP and brightness/contrast controls to see what I am going to list:

1. on this picture I see:

google_md401x.jpg
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Picture of MDR401 card found with Google search
File license
Public domain

1.1. crystal from 1999 - strange, but I guess not enough
1.2. Zilog chip with that solid "Z" logo (Zilog never had such logo) sold from Chinese seller with date codes from recent years like 2010, 2019:

ebay_zilog_z8_datecode_2010.jpg
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eBay Zilog with strange Logo and strange date code
File license
Public domain

I don't even know - what are those Zilogs? I mean some Chinese clones or what exactly? that alone is interesting enough to me, if someone knows, to share the information about Zilogs with such logo and very recent datecodes of manufacturing.

1.3. Botch wires (like prototype of someone cloning old card or developing new one) plus even more suspicious and revealing those silk-screen "ID Codes" (I don't know how to call them - feel free to educate me in case they have some special name) that low-cost Chinese PCB manufactures put and put sloppy, i.e. automatically by the PCB manufacture, literally slapped on top of the "330H" label

2. on this picture:

amybay_mdr401x.jpg
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Picture of MDR401 card took from AmiBay classified
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Public domain

2.1. more or less the same observations with the difference - no botch wires, the PCB manufacturer silk-screen ID/Code is moved to not overlap the "330H" label, i.e. looks like even more recent "production"

2.2. the OptoCoupler is "6N138" - and that I cannot find in existence before 2004 (Vishay datasheet) and on another picture that I cannot find at the moment, I even see "OnSemi" 6N138 OptoCoupler, which are like 2010 and newer (as far as I can tell)

So, all of the above, makes me think someone very unethically is abusing and exploiting the retro-gaming community. I have no problem, with selling newly made boards of old hardware, i.e. clones, but selling them as "NOS 1991" and putting effort to make them look like that with using old logic chips with 1991 datecodes - is really a new low to me!

In fact at this point I don't see even a single evidence such "MDR-401" card really existed in the past - it starts to look more and more to me like someone invented it very recently when those "NOS 1991" cards started to circulate, when they in realty are some new development.

I will appreciate to hear your thoughts on this!

Reply 1 of 71, by Tiido

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* 6N138 is an ancient part, originally made by HP, that shows how ancient it is. It was contemporary when MIDI specification was first formed in the 80s
* That Zilog logo came to be sometime in the 90s. For example most official Z80 documentation I have bears this logo, including the "bible" which is the Z80 User Manual.

Now as far as that card goes on one of the photos in this thread, it is definitely modern, you can see the typcial chinese PCB fabs code on it.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 2 of 71, by mattw

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Tiido wrote on 2023-10-21, 13:02:

Now as far as that card goes on one of the photos in this thread, it is definitely modern, you can see the typical chinese PCB fabs code on it.

exactly, that actually is enough to show that it's a scam as far as "1991 NOS" goes, but I think it goes even further, because in Reality such MDR-401 card has never ever even existed - but it was added even to the Wikipedia section about MPU-401, of course without any real reference. So, yeah, I think we have very bad case of abuse and exploitation of the retro-gaming community and that "MDR-401" card has never even existed! and what I called "elaborate hoax", because extra effort was made to make it look like made in 1991.

Tiido wrote on 2023-10-21, 13:02:

* 6N138 is an ancient part, originally made by HP, that shows how ancient it is. It was contemporary when MIDI specification was first formed in the 80s

OK, but what about 6N138 with "OnSemi" logo? I mean OnSemi in 2000 were not even in existence, they were just starting, but not manufacturing chips yet.

Tiido wrote on 2023-10-21, 13:02:

* That Zilog logo came to be sometime in the 90s. For example most official Z80 documentation I have bears this logo, including the "bible" which is the Z80 User Manual.

are you sure about the Solid "Z" logo I am talking about (i.e. where the "Z" is like normal Z) and the Not-Solid one (which is the Original):

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Real Zilog Logo "Z" middle line of the Z is not Solid
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Public domain

plus how come Zilog made chip with date code of manufacturing in 2010 or in 2019, that's the date code of those Solid "Z" logo chips I found? i.e. those that the Chinese are selling and what is put on those MDR-401 cards.

Last edited by mattw on 2023-10-21, 13:57. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 3 of 71, by Tiido

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6N138 is made by many makers, but yes, ON semi is something that came to be in 2000s after Motorola got rid of its component making businesses and definitely won't be found on a supposedly early 90s card.

This logo is what Z80 used sometime starting in 90s and until IXYS bought them :

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Z80 logo
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There have been multiple over the years, the logo that predated that one is this :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zilog_1990s_logo.svg

The Z you showed is something they used in 80s

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 4 of 71, by mattw

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Tiido wrote on 2023-10-21, 13:55:

The Z you showed is something they used in 80s

I see and so at least the Zilog chip might be legit, even though its datecode is from few years ago - maybe someone still has license or something to make them.

Reply 5 of 71, by mattw

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So, anyone with any information such MDR-401 card existed in reality around 1991? at least, thanks to @Tiido we sorted out without any doubt that what is currently circulating in the retro-gaming community is - at best modern reproduction, fraudulently sold as "1991 NOS".

Reply 6 of 71, by mattw

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OMG, a user here:

Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

bought not one, but 2 of those cards - saying that they are "NOS" as well. Posted another picture of them that can be used for analysis of the fakery.

So, this thing is really spreading like a virus. I wonder if that user will care to make even better high-res pictures, as well dump the ROM (I am currently betting it's HardMPU/SoftMPU ported to Zilog, just to keep the elaborate hoax of "1991 NOS" using Zilog Z8 or maybe MusicQuest MQX ROM). I will send PM to that user, even I don't want to cause the disappointment.

And let be honest - that is beyond fraud, because most likely such card has not even existed.

Reply 7 of 71, by weedeewee

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Oh Wow, NOS from the early 90's with 3D printed brackets ! 😁
yup fake .

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Reply 8 of 71, by mattw

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weedeewee wrote on 2023-10-21, 16:04:

Oh Wow, NOS from the early 90's with 3D printed brackets ! 😁
yup fake .

yeah, but the questions remain - total fake, i.e. such card has never existed or fake reproduction of otherwise existed in 1991 hardware? currently, I am leaning towards "such card has never existed" option, which makes it really elaborate hoax, as I said, not to mention someone (hopefully the faker and not someone that was scammed) add that card to the Wikipedia article!

Reply 9 of 71, by Jo22

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Makes sense. On the other hand, though, most Turbo XT mainboards of the 80s were no-name products, unlicensed pirate copies made in Taiwan.

They were no different to this card here, except that they were based on more recent designs (age difference being less than 10 years between original vs copy).

Oh, and Taiwan and Hongkong products were being perceived as being of higher quality than China products were.

So all in all, who cares who worries if something is "original", as long as functionality and quality is preserved?
I mean, the PC platform is a clone platform, anyway.

And a modern AdLib replica is no different to a 1990 AdLib card.
Except for minor differences, like the soldering used, PCB material, the type of LM386 amp (built in 70s/80s vs 20xx) and resistor tolerances/resistor type.

Edit: I mean, the underlying technology is same, gratefully. The Yamaha chips on the AdLib clones and the Zilog on that MPU-401 replica (?) are the real deal.
If an FPGA was being involved in such a design, I can understand the disappointment, of course.
Using an FPGA would be like replacing a tube circuit by a transistor circuit.

Last edited by Jo22 on 2023-10-21, 16:30. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 10 of 71, by weedeewee

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It does look similar to the DS-401 that is also referenced on the wiki page
the MDR-401 reference was only added in 2022

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Do not ask Why !
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Reply 11 of 71, by darry

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Week 36 of 1991 bust have been a busy one at Mosel. Every photo I have seen has that same date code on the Mosel chip. 😉

I find reference to this dating back years . I wonder how it got started. Maybe the MDR-401 is based on an actual old and rather obscure product ?

Reply 12 of 71, by mattw

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weedeewee wrote on 2023-10-21, 16:29:

the MDR-401 reference was only added in 2022

that is consistent with my investigation, i.e. that it is circulating in the last 1-2 years in the retro-computing community.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-21, 16:23:

So all in all, who cares who worries if something is "original", as long as functionality and quality is preserved?

We do care, when someone sells it as original NOS card on insane prices (i.e. some people are scammed big time), we do care when someone manipulates even the Wikipedia adding that card as something existing in 1991 without any reference. I don't care when someone clones old existing hardware and tell it's making and selling the clone. So, there is night and day difference between this case and what you're giving as examples!

Last edited by mattw on 2023-10-21, 17:02. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 71, by mattw

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weedeewee wrote on 2023-10-21, 16:29:

It does look similar to the DS-401 that is also referenced on the wiki page

weedeewee wrote on 2023-10-21, 16:29:

Maybe the MDR-401 is based on an actual old and rather obscure product ?

basically, around 1990 there were 2 main designs using Zilog Z8 (DX-401, MusicQuest) and Intel MCU 805x MCU (Midiman MM-401) and they look pretty much the same. So, without dump of the ROM of that MDR-401 fakery it's hard to say. If it's total invention, i.e. it has never existed or not. most likely it's SoftMPU/HardMPU port to Zilog - just to keep the illusion it's 1991 using Zilog Z8.

[EDIT] let me add pictures of all those real cards, I've just mentioned:

midiLandDX401.jpg
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DX-401
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Public domain
mq401.JPG
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MusicQuest 401 card
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Public domain
mm401.jpg
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mm401.jpg
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Midiman MM-401
File license
Public domain

Reply 14 of 71, by DerBaum

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i found a seller wich offers more then one. the offer included pictures of the backside. its hand soldered and a 3d printed slot cover. the description doesnt mention it as authentic 90s just as new.
its 80 euros plus 15 shipping to my country. at least this offer doesnt seem too scammy.

FCKGW-RHQQ2

Reply 15 of 71, by mattw

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DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:15:

at least this offer doesnt seem too scammy.

it doesn't really matter - I saw one for 250 EUR from Germany and the AmiBay classified from which I posted a picture in my initial post was I believe for 200 USD selling from the USA. However, that really doesn't matter at least to me - I mean the money are the least of the issue - what matters is how unethically is abusing and exploiting the retro-gaming community in such a way - for example adding the Wikipedia entry, deliberately using many chips with datacode 1991 to obviously fool people, etc not to repeat everything already mentioned. Also, I am sure all those cards comes from the same place, but obviously they spread worldwide: Germany, USA, etc.

Reply 16 of 71, by DerBaum

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mattw wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:22:
DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:15:

at least this offer doesnt seem too scammy.

it doesn't really matter - I saw one for 250 EUR from Germany and the AmiBay classified from which I posted a picture in my initial post was I believe for 200 USD selling from the USA. However, that really doesn't matter at least to me - I mean the money are the least of the issue - what matters is how unethically is abusing and exploiting the retro-gaming community in such a way - for example the Wikipedia entry, deliberately using many chips with datacode 1991, etc not to repeat everything already mentioned. Also, I am sure all those cards comes from the same place, but obviously they spread worldwide: Germany, USA, etc.

To be fair this isnt a new thing to fake products. And it doesnt shock me.
If the buyer cant do basic research maybe he should pay 250 for it 😏

It took me 2 minutes to reverse search the pictures find the seller and get confirmation thats a replica...

FCKGW-RHQQ2

Reply 17 of 71, by mattw

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DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:25:

To be fair this isnt a new thing to fake products. And it doesnt shock me.

OK, but do you have any example for such a thing in the current retro-computer community (let's say in the last 5 to 10 years)? where "clones" are either released as open-source hardware (e.g. HardMPU, technically HardMPU is not a hardware clone, but functional clone, i.e. re-implementation) and you can DIY or if you can't solder, etc. can buy it from someone, but in any case you know what you're buying or clone is made kind of commercially (as the one made of the MusicQuest card), but you know it's a clone and again know what you're buying. In this particular case - whoever made it made everything possible not just to hide what you're buying, but with Wikipedia entries, in classifieds advertised as NOS, etc is fooling the buyer it's legit old piece of existing hardware.

DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:25:

If you cant do basic research maybe you should pay 250 for it 😏

that is kind of cynical view, but what we can do for those people - almost nothing, as Mark Twain said:

it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled

Anyway, at least now, I hope people will do pay more attention to such things...

Last edited by mattw on 2023-10-21, 17:44. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 18 of 71, by DerBaum

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mattw wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:35:
OK, but do you have any example for such a thing in the current retro-computer community (let's say in the last 5 to 10 years)? […]
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DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:25:

To be fair this isnt a new thing to fake products. And it doesnt shock me.

OK, but do you have any example for such a thing in the current retro-computer community (let's say in the last 5 to 10 years)? where "clones" are either released as open-source hardware (e.g. HardMPU) and you can DIY or if you can't solder, etc. can buy it from someone, but in any case you know what you're buying or clone is made kind of commercially (as the one made of the MusicQuest card), but you know it's a clone and again know what you're buying. In this particular case - whoever made it made everything possible not just to hide what you're buying, but with Wikipedia entries, in classifieds advertised as NOS, etc is fooling the buyer it's legit old piece of existing hardware.

DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:25:

If you cant do basic research maybe you should pay 250 for it 😏

that is kind of cynical view, but what we can do for those people - almost nothing, as Mark Twain said:

it's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled

Anyway, at least now, I hope people do pay more attention to such things...

I am pretty sure i have seen AdLib cards being sold as authentic wich were clearly reproductions.
If we scale it down a little bit ... : I can now go to chinese wholesale sites and find at least 100 types of retro chips that are 100 percent fake...

FCKGW-RHQQ2

Reply 19 of 71, by CharlieFoxtrot

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mattw wrote on 2023-10-21, 15:42:
OMG, a user here: […]
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OMG, a user here:

Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

bought not one, but 2 of those cards - saying that they are "NOS" as well. Posted another picture of them that can be used for analysis of the fakery.

So, this thing is really spreading like a virus. I wonder if that user will care to make even better high-res pictures, as well dump the ROM (I am currently betting it's HardMPU/SoftMPU ported to Zilog, just to keep the elaborate hoax of "1991 NOS" using Zilog Z8 or maybe MusicQuest MQX ROM). I will send PM to that user, even I don't want to cause the disappointment.

And let be honest - that is beyond fraud, because most likely such card has not even existed.

Mattw pointed me to here, interesting thread.

Yes, I have two of those cards and I posted about them earlier in the bought this hardware -thread.

And yes, 3d printed brackets were there and it was evident from the photos seller had. I didn't think that much about it, because initially I thought that those cards may have been bunch of old cards that came without brackets and seller printed brackets for them. Adapters for MIDI cables are clearly hobbyist made stuff too, not something that you would get with such card in the 80s or 90s.

When cards arrived I also noticed that circuit boards look very new, exactly kind of what you can get from PCBWay, but I admit I didn't think that much out of it afterwards.

So what are these then? Clones of a real card? I have no clue. I have been using both cards with my MT32Pi as well as SC-55mk2 and everything I've thrown at them has been working just fine. Zero problems on my end they have worked as I'd expect from a MPU-401 interface. So at least mine are functional cards and I can't complain. I think at the time price for the two cards was around 120€+shipping.