DerBaum wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:40:

I am pretty sure i have seen AdLib cards being sold as authentic wich were clearly reproductions.

I haven't heard, but they all are using Authentic Yamaha chips - it's still not even close on the same level, at least in my eyes.

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:44:

So what are these then? Clones of a real card? I have no clue.

depends what you mean by "real cards" - they are real as they are existing, but "real" as 1991 card - definitely - no! real as MDR-401 ever existed in 1991 is also very doubtful. So, they are "clones" of MPU-401, but again what kind of clone - clone of the clones, i.e. clone of some of the legit cards I posted pictures of which in few previous posts or clone as in the meaning of HardMPU, i.e. re-implementation like HardMPU re-implemented SoftMPU for Atmel chip, i.e. in this case re-implement SoftMPU for Zilog - really without ROM dump - no one will ever be able to tell.

It's good to hear they work, but I doubt they are perfect or that good, I mean all MPU-401 clones have problems - the least problems I believe is the MusicQuest one. However, it depends on the games, list here is good starting point:

http://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/mt32_game_compat.php#gateway

for example many games are a no go with clones.

mattw wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:50:

depends what you mean by "real cards" - they are real as they are existing, but "real" as 1991 card - definitely - no! real as M […]
Show full quote

depends what you mean by "real cards" - they are real as they are existing, but "real" as 1991 card - definitely - no! real as MDR-401 ever existed in 1991 is also very doubtful. So, they are "clones" of MPU-401, but again what kind of clone - clone of the clones, i.e. clone of some of the legit cards I posted pictures of which in few previous posts or clone as in the meaning of HardMPU, i.e. re-implementation like HardMPU re-implemented SoftMPU for Atmel chip, i.e. in this case re-implement SoftMPU for Zilog - really without ROM dump - no one will ever be able to tell.

It's good to hear they work, but I doubt they are perfect or that good, I mean all MPU-401 clones have problems - the least problems I believe is the MusicQuest one. However, it depends on the games, list here is good starting point:

http://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/mt32_game_compat.php#gateway

for example many games are a no go with clones.

I have used those cards exclusively for games and haven't bumped to any issues so far, but naturally I have still relatively small sample. Just couple that pop into my mind that I played are Wing Commander I, Gateway and Secret of Monkey Island, but I haven't fired up systems with those cards for few months or so, so I don't remember exactly what titles I tested, but I know I didn't have any problems. However, those games I played more extensively and that is the reason I remember them.

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2023-10-21, 18:51:

I know I didn't have any problems.

I cannot comment anything on the work, it's good it seems to generally work, in such case I even less understand why it was necessary they to be sold in such a misleading way. you can try the tests here:

Re: Missing music in Gateway (MT-32 mode)

they give at least some surface idea how close or not it's to a properly working intelligent MPU-401.

mattw wrote on 2023-10-21, 18:59:

I cannot comment anything on the work, it's good it seems to generally work, in such case I even less understand why it was nece […]
Show full quote

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2023-10-21, 18:51:

I know I didn't have any problems.

I cannot comment anything on the work, it's good it seems to generally work, in such case I even less understand why it was necessary they to be sold in such a misleading way. you can try the tests here:

Re: Missing music in Gateway (MT-32 mode)

they give at least some surface idea how close or not it's to a properly working intelligent MPU-401.

I'll check that out when I dig those systems out next time.

I don't understand either why they are sold that way and masked as old cards. If they are at least adequate modern clones, why not sell them that way to begin with? I mean, price would be completely okay for such hobby product IMO.

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2023-10-21, 19:07:

I don't understand either why they are sold that way and masked as old cards. If they are at least adequate modern clones, why not sell them that way to begin with? I mean, price would be completely okay for such hobby product IMO.

yes, exactly, plus it's really important to know what design they are based on - for example, if the ROM is something new developed by whoever made them, then reporting problems can help fixing the ROM and improve the card, even that way make them the best. if the ROM is something old (i.e. cloned real old design), then it's really important to know what clone you're buying. Someone would say, but they are those old "MDR-401" cards, but the problem is - there is no any evidence of such card existed. I really cannot make out anything of it. indeed, it's very strange case.

I'm pretty sure it's a clone of the Music-Quest card, the parts almost entirely match up and there's a publically available schematic right here: Re: Music Quest PC MIDI Card MPU IH9MQ9 : info , drivers and tests
The ROMs are shared and the only missing piece is the GAL16v8 which could be potentially cloned or read-out (via hacks or brute force) from an original chip, either from an original Music Quest card or the PCMIDI V010 card. The GAL code isn't shared anywhere that I'm aware of.

The small soldermask text on the PCB will be a production marker put there most likely by PCBway - I have a PCB that was made by them in front of me and it has the same 11 digit code like this "WxxxxxxASM3" 😀

The fictitious backstory is a bit odd but it's worked well for others: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/06/inside … ame-collecting/
Maybe this was put together by someone after seeing the ARGUS / GUSAR mess and they decided to sell off their spare cards in a way that would go under the radar. I put together more than 1 hardMPU board since I have more than one PC and they're cheaper to make in bulk (though I have not sold mine).
This might be a similar thing. Is it wrong to sell a clone, of a clone, of a clone? 😁

To verify what the card is I recommend getting the Music Quest driver software from here: http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=650
Extract it and run MQDIAG in DOS, my PCMIDI card says it's found as a PCMIDI with EEPROM version 200-010.

Thermalwrong wrote on 2023-10-21, 22:40:

the only missing piece is the GAL16v8

good post, packed with valuable information! I believe that GAL is just to save using few standard 74-series chips for the IO port address decoder. If I am right, then that is even disadvantage of the design as it fixes the card to 330H instead be able to select IO Port. So, I would suggest to anyone making MusicQuest clones in the future to investigate that and replace the GAL with circuit similar to the one found on Roland "MIF-IPC" card, I guess all necessary is available here:

https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/Lo-tech_MIF-IPC-B

Last, but not least excellent suggestion to check with MQDIAG - at least it will answer if the ROM is the one from MQX cards.

Thermalwrong wrote on 2023-10-21, 22:40:

I'm pretty sure it's a clone of the Music-Quest card, the parts almost entirely match up and there's a publically available sche […]
Show full quote

I'm pretty sure it's a clone of the Music-Quest card, the parts almost entirely match up and there's a publically available schematic right here: Re: Music Quest PC MIDI Card MPU IH9MQ9 : info , drivers and tests
The ROMs are shared and the only missing piece is the GAL16v8 which could be potentially cloned or read-out (via hacks or brute force) from an original chip, either from an original Music Quest card or the PCMIDI V010 card. The GAL code isn't shared anywhere that I'm aware of.

The small soldermask text on the PCB will be a production marker put there most likely by PCBway - I have a PCB that was made by them in front of me and it has the same 11 digit code like this "WxxxxxxASM3" 😀

The fictitious backstory is a bit odd but it's worked well for others: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/06/inside … ame-collecting/
Maybe this was put together by someone after seeing the ARGUS / GUSAR mess and they decided to sell off their spare cards in a way that would go under the radar. I put together more than 1 hardMPU board since I have more than one PC and they're cheaper to make in bulk (though I have not sold mine).
This might be a similar thing. Is it wrong to sell a clone, of a clone, of a clone? 😁

To verify what the card is I recommend getting the Music Quest driver software from here: http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=650
Extract it and run MQDIAG in DOS, my PCMIDI card says it's found as a PCMIDI with EEPROM version 200-010.

Very good post and I will test these cards when I get one of the machines on my desk at some point. I don’t have room on my desk for all my systems and currently machines equipped with these cards are rotated away.

I still don’t understand the fake backstory. That game collecting thing is IMO a whole another ballgame as prices can be extremely high to the point of insanity in game collecting market. You really can make big money with forgeries there. But selling rather obscure hardware like MPU cards? And these are sold for very reasonable price similar to many other homebrew projects. I would understand it somewhat if they would try to make you pay hundreds of beans for these, but that is not the case here. Seller could sell these for the same price without claiming that these are actually old cards. It doesn’t bring any benefit to them.

MDR-401 cards definitely existed in the past - just like a bazillion other 401 interfaces using whatever architecture was available at the time, nothing new to see tbh
this is definitely not some "modern" re-creation of soft/hard-mpu ported to ZILOG universe - it would be nonsensical to put it mildly
(newly made card yes , but it is based on some old original design that is it's own thing)

DEMOSEQ software can be found in places like vetusware if anyone is curious enough about it:

keropi wrote on 2023-10-22, 13:03:

MDR-401 cards definitely existed in the past

that statement needs a reference that supports it! I see no evidence for that.

keropi wrote on 2023-10-22, 13:03:

DEMOSEQ software can be found in places like vetusware if anyone is curious enough about it:

and how you confirmed that software is made in 1991 when the upload to vetusware is made on"September 21, 2023" (based on the date of one of the files in the ZIP archive)?

isn't very strange that the software appeared 1 month ago? similar to how Wikipedia entry appeared 1 year ago... I can write you such software in probably an hour even with my very limited knowledge and put 1991 on it, the same as how 74-logic chips with 1991 datecodes are putted on the card.

[EDIT] BTW, I've just noticed that you run that in DOSBox, which means the software recognizes SoftMPU basically as MDR-401 card, which means it's not MusicQuest or any other of the known existed in the past cards, because each of them returns different version number than SoftMPU, which returns 1.5A (i.e. the Roland number):

Re: Roland LAPC-N / I question

that in fact is how MQDIAG checks if it's MusicQuest card. So, one circumstantial evidence it might be port of SoftMPU to Zilog Z8. None of the old cards like Midiman, MusicQuest, etc . returns 1.5A as version number, because then their software cannot recognize them and distinguish from Roland. After all those cards were legit - they did not clone any Roland hardware, rather than that they implemented Intelligent MIDI protocol and thus use the version number as ID, i.e exactly how for example MusicQuest cards report "200-010" as their version number.

mattw wrote on 2023-10-22, 14:04:

and how you confirmed that software is made in 1991 when the upload to vetusware is made on"September 21, 2023"? isn't strange that the software appeared 1 month ago? similar to how Wikipedia entry appeared 1 year ago...

someone bought a card and uploaded the file to vetusware , that's how it got there last month , what is weird about that?
do not assume that every software is archived or that every piece of hardware documented, people still archive software from the 80s as it is found.

keropi wrote on 2023-10-22, 14:20:

someone bought a card and uploaded the file to vetusware , that's how it got there last month , what is weird about that?

nothing is weird about it, I am asking where is the proof that software is made in 1991 and not in 2022?

I think we can agree that the cards currently being sold and marketed as New Old Stock MDR-401 are not new old stock and clearly newly made cards.
Whether a real MDR-401 existed back in the days can be argued, though similar cards do seem to exist from that time.
About the software, a quick google, groups & archive lookup doesn't reveal much, which seems kinda odd. .. though, it does remind me that the same software was delivered with the DS-401? I'm mixing info up.

weedeewee wrote on 2023-10-22, 14:30:

I think we can agree that the cards currently being sold and marketed as New Old Stock MDR-401 are not new old stock and clearly newly made cards.

100% agree

weedeewee wrote on 2023-10-22, 14:30:

Whether a real MDR-401 existed back in the days can be argued, though similar cards do seem to exist from that time.
About the software, a quick google, groups & archive lookup doesn't reveal much, which seems kinda odd. ..

exactly, but see my [EDIT] section in the post I've just made:

Re: MDR-401 cards - are they really existed or are they an elaborate hoax?

it's just another thing to add to the list of odd things - it seems that software doesn't recognize any real "MDR-401" card (assuming if such existed it will use its own Revision number as ID, as all legit old cards do). In fact I think there will be a good chance Roland would have sued them in the 90ties if they used their Revision number - I guess that's why no one of the other cards use it.

here is DEMOSEQ with PCMIDI
program does not do any specific version check , if it finds an "intelligent" mpu it will run I guess

keropi wrote on 2023-10-22, 15:04:

here is DEMOSEQ with PCMIDI
program does not do any specific version check , if it finds an "intelligent" mpu it will run I guess

good test, thank you! but what number PCMIDI card returns as Revision? please, could you type those commands with PCMIDI card:

Re: Roland LAPC-N / I question

BTW, I was thinking PCMIDI is MusicQuest. also, maybe I am mistaken MusicQuest use the Revision to report back "200-010".

20 and 11 are the responses
200-010 comes from string in program rom , there are other previous versions - at least -004 , -006 and -007 that also get reported correctly

keropi wrote on 2023-10-22, 15:18:

20 and 11 are the responses

I guess then, it is like you concluded, i.e. "DEMOSEQ " doesn't do precise check for the exact MPU-401 card, as MusicQuest 'MQDIAG' and Midiman '401test' tools are doing.

CharlieFoxtrot wrote on 2023-10-21, 17:44:

Mattw pointed me to here, interesting thread. […]
Show full quote

Mattw pointed me to here, interesting thread.

Yes, I have two of those cards and I posted about them earlier in the bought this hardware -thread.

And yes, 3d printed brackets were there and it was evident from the photos seller had. I didn't think that much about it, because initially I thought that those cards may have been bunch of old cards that came without brackets and seller printed brackets for them. Adapters for MIDI cables are clearly hobbyist made stuff too, not something that you would get with such card in the 80s or 90s.

When cards arrived I also noticed that circuit boards look very new, exactly kind of what you can get from PCBWay, but I admit I didn't think that much out of it afterwards.

So what are these then? Clones of a real card? I have no clue. I have been using both cards with my MT32Pi as well as SC-55mk2 and everything I've thrown at them has been working just fine. Zero problems on my end they have worked as I'd expect from a MPU-401 interface. So at least mine are functional cards and I can't complain. I think at the time price for the two cards was around 120€+shipping.

I own the same card aswell and had no problems with it either, price was about the same.

For me personally i never really cared much if it was a fake/reproduction or not. Mostly due to there not being much options out there (As complete solutions)
(Is the card worth 250, hell no. But between 50-70 its a good deal in my eyes if you need one)

S95Sedan wrote on 2023-10-23, 20:07:

I own the same card aswell

Hey, I know you from the SB DSP thread and I know that you can solder and have a programmer. So, please, let take the investigation to a next level:

test 1) de-solder the ROM and dump it, i.e. we check if it's Music Quest ROM or not
test 2) if it turns out not to be Music Quest ROM, burn yourself a new ROM chip with the Music Quest ROM (it's available in the Music Quest ZIP 'music_quest_mpu_ih9mq9.zip' on vogonsdrivers - any ROM chip compatible with 27C512 will do the job)

test2 will answer if the board schematic is exactly the same as Music Quest card, because on pictures it looks like it. Also, Music Quest ROM is highly compatible.

What you think about it?