Well, for starters I'd talk to Keropi, Marmes and/or Tiido, as they've done similar before to great succes. In fact, look at the cards they have made and instead of re-inventing the wheel, look for a use case they've not already covered.

Couple of stand-out cards:
- MK8330: take potentially the best all-in-one ISA sound chip (SBPro, SB16, WSS, digital audio out etc) that was never used on any decent cards and well, put it on a decent card.
- Orpheus II: GuS PnP combined with Crystal SBPro chip, real OPL3 and for good measure an intelligent mode MIDI controller. Sort of spiritual successor to the GUS Extreme.
- AdLib Gold replica: makes unobtainium obtainable (not cheap though - big complex card, still fraction of the price the real thing goes for)

So one card that gives a good chip the good card it never had, one that puts every functionality except the kitchen sink into a card and finally a replica of something not otherwise obtainable.

So, what would you do?

One thing I see people wanting is a PCI card that works well in DOS on late PCI systems. There were huge numbers of ways to emulate/tunnel ISA DMA on PCI (PC/PCI, TDMA, DDMA, DSDMA etc) but they all have some level of chipset dependency and tend not to be available on newest systems. What might work is simply taking a good (i.e. DMA-supporting) PCI-ISA bridge and combining that with a good, well-documented and cruciall: still available ISA chip (CS4237 and CMI8330 spring to mind).

But you do you, maybe you have a much better idea 😀

It would be cool to get boB Gudgel of spectral acoustics involved in one of these projects. I doubt he’ll have time, but I’ll tag him.

dionb wrote on 2023-12-06, 23:21:

Well, for starters I'd talk to Keropi, Marmes and/or Tiido, as they've done similar before to great succes. In fact, look at the […]
Show full quote

Well, for starters I'd talk to Keropi, Marmes and/or Tiido, as they've done similar before to great succes. In fact, look at the cards they have made and instead of re-inventing the wheel, look for a use case they've not already covered.

Couple of stand-out cards:
- MK8330: take potentially the best all-in-one ISA sound chip (SBPro, SB16, WSS, digital audio out etc) that was never used on any decent cards and well, put it on a decent card.
- Orpheus II: GuS PnP combined with Crystal SBPro chip, real OPL3 and for good measure an intelligent mode MIDI controller. Sort of spiritual successor to the GUS Extreme.
- AdLib Gold replica: makes unobtainium obtainable (not cheap though - big complex card, still fraction of the price the real thing goes for)

So one card that gives a good chip the good card it never had, one that puts every functionality except the kitchen sink into a card and finally a replica of something not otherwise obtainable.

So, what would you do?

One thing I see people wanting is a PCI card that works well in DOS on late PCI systems. There were huge numbers of ways to emulate/tunnel ISA DMA on PCI (PC/PCI, TDMA, DDMA, DSDMA etc) but they all have some level of chipset dependency and tend not to be available on newest systems. What might work is simply taking a good (i.e. DMA-supporting) PCI-ISA bridge and combining that with a good, well-documented and cruciall: still available ISA chip (CS4237 and CMI8330 spring to mind).

But you do you, maybe you have a much better idea 😀

I think I didn't make myself clear enough 😁 well, if I wanted a cool modern ISA card, I'd just go get an Orpheus 2. It's well priced and does almost anything I'd want.

This isn't about that - it's more of hobbyist thing. I don't know how to make a sound card. I want to know how to do it. And I want to document that journey for others.

Sphere478 wrote on 2023-12-07, 01:26:

It would be cool to get boB Gudgel of spectral acoustics involved in one of these projects. I doubt he’ll have time, but I’ll tag him.

Thanks, friend.

dionb wrote on 2023-12-06, 23:21:

What might work is simply taking a good (i.e. DMA-supporting) PCI-ISA bridge and combining that with a good, well-documented and cruciall: still available ISA chip (CS4237 and CMI8330 spring to mind).

I think PCI-ISA bridge requires PC/PCI (aka SB-Link, which involves wiring some physical signals) for DMA to work. Modern chipsets don't do that anymore: ICH6+, all of nForce and ATI/AMD.

Because of this, even there are newer motherboards with ISA slots, sound cards don't work on them. You can still use FM and MIDI as they do not require DMA to work.

Getting just I/O and IRQ to work may be straightforward, however, and that's what most industrial use cases need.

Though I'm not sure if it's even possible to "emulate" DMA in a way that devices behind PCI-ISA bridges can use...

PS: It may still be possible to use a PCI-ISA bridge to make a PCI "addon card" that adds support for real FM and MIDI (Wave Blaster) to complement existing onboard/discrete audio for a variety of OSes.

These days, people use external 19 inch rack mount audio I/O boards.

Back in the 1990s, I bought an 8 channel audio I/O PCI board that interfaced to an external 19" rack for the audio jacks and balanced input and output.
That was a Gadgetlabs unit. I bought one from their first batch.
The computers that you guys are working with are old and slow. For good audio and digital audio workstations (DAW) with multiple channels, a fast computer is needed.

Also, most of the audio interfaces these days also contain MIDI connections. I think my old Gadgetlabs did as well.

Now, I use a German unit (RME) called a Fireface which uses faster USB 3. They used to use Fire Wire.

I also do a bit of video editing which requires a fast computer. A 586 will not cut it.

My nostalgia goes back to the good old CP/M days of the late 70s early 80s and the 8080 or Z80 processor.

BTW, it was Spectro Acoustics. My brother's company back in the 1970s that stemmed from Bob Carver and Phase Linear which we both worked at.

boB

boB_K7IQ wrote on 2024-01-03, 16:50:

These days, people use external 19 inch rack mount audio I/O boards. […]
Show full quote

These days, people use external 19 inch rack mount audio I/O boards.

Back in the 1990s, I bought an 8 channel audio I/O PCI board that interfaced to an external 19" rack for the audio jacks and balanced input and output.
That was a Gadgetlabs unit. I bought one from their first batch.
The computers that you guys are working with are old and slow. For good audio and digital audio workstations (DAW) with multiple channels, a fast computer is needed.

Also, most of the audio interfaces these days also contain MIDI connections. I think my old Gadgetlabs did as well.

Now, I use a German unit (RME) called a Fireface which uses faster USB 3. They used to use Fire Wire.

I also do a bit of video editing which requires a fast computer. A 586 will not cut it.

My nostalgia goes back to the good old CP/M days of the late 70s early 80s and the 8080 or Z80 processor.

BTW, it was Spectro Acoustics. My brother's company back in the 1970s that stemmed from Bob Carver and Phase Linear which we both worked at.

boB

borB! you made it!!!! :p

I don't think any of us will be making new music on these old systems/cards, it's more for making good sound for stuff these systems are already doing, playing cds, mp3s, old games, windows sounds etc.

Some of the projects like these have integrated modern hardware onto old cards like Pis, it might be possible to do some of the work with one of those. Another idea, an audigy 2 zs is a 24/192 8 Chanel sound processor from my recall which has drivers that work in many of our old systems. it may be possible to build a card around that chip and use the already working drivers. That audigy chip touted cpu offloading as one of it's competitive features.
PicoGUS: ISA sound card emulator with Raspberry Pi Pico (Gravis Ultrasound, AdLib, MPU-401, Tandy, CMS)
There was a company called auzentech that made absolutely beautiful cards using other company's processors for the audio enthusiasts back in the 2000's they made an X-fi one, but unfortunately never a audigy 2 zs model
https://aphnetworks.com/reviews/auzentech_x_fi_prelude/2

LSS10999 wrote on 2023-12-07, 07:16:

I think PCI-ISA bridge requires PC/PCI (aka SB-Link, which involves wiring some physical signals) for DMA to work. Modern chipse […]
Show full quote

dionb wrote on 2023-12-06, 23:21:

What might work is simply taking a good (i.e. DMA-supporting) PCI-ISA bridge and combining that with a good, well-documented and cruciall: still available ISA chip (CS4237 and CMI8330 spring to mind).

I think PCI-ISA bridge requires PC/PCI (aka SB-Link, which involves wiring some physical signals) for DMA to work. Modern chipsets don't do that anymore: ICH6+, all of nForce and ATI/AMD.

Because of this, even there are newer motherboards with ISA slots, sound cards don't work on them. You can still use FM and MIDI as they do not require DMA to work.

Getting just I/O and IRQ to work may be straightforward, however, and that's what most industrial use cases need.

Though I'm not sure if it's even possible to "emulate" DMA in a way that devices behind PCI-ISA bridges can use...

PS: It may still be possible to use a PCI-ISA bridge to make a PCI "addon card" that adds support for real FM and MIDI (Wave Blaster) to complement existing onboard/discrete audio for a variety of OSes.

dISAppointment - LPC to ISA adapter - ISA on modern motherboards

supposedly has DMA..?

Sphere478 wrote on 2024-01-04, 00:13:

dISAppointment - LPC to ISA adapter - ISA on modern motherboards

supposedly has DMA..?

That's for LPC bus, not PCI. Most of the LPC pins except LDRQ# may be accessed via TPM port.

And yes, DMA is possible up to Intel 9 series, just that you need to refer to your board's boardview to locate and bring out LDRQ# using a wire. And whether or not you can use such an adapter depends on the motherboard design -- some boards have other factors preventing it from working...

LSS10999 wrote on 2024-01-04, 01:11:

Sphere478 wrote on 2024-01-04, 00:13:

dISAppointment - LPC to ISA adapter - ISA on modern motherboards

supposedly has DMA..?

That's for LPC bus, not PCI. Most of the LPC pins except LDRQ# may be accessed via TPM port.

And yes, DMA is possible up to Intel 9 series, just that you need to refer to your board's boardview to locate and bring out LDRQ# using a wire. And whether or not you can use such an adapter depends on the motherboard design -- some boards have other factors preventing it from working...

what you say sounds correct far as I know, haven't looked far into it. 😀

Another great sound card from the 1990s was the Crystal Semiconductor cards. CS made the good A/D and D/A delta-sigma converters starting in the late 1980s we used to use.

I had some of those boards until recently. They were fairly high dynamic range.

I was hoping the ISA adapter could have worked for an ISA sound and DSP card I made way back when.
Since I designed and bread-boarded it, I might actually be able to get it to work ! But that board was hand wired and not that great, noise wise.

boB_K7IQ wrote on 2024-01-06, 03:17:

Another great sound card from the 1990s was the Crystal Semiconductor cards. CS made the good A/D and D/A delta-sigma convert […]
Show full quote

Another great sound card from the 1990s was the Crystal Semiconductor cards. CS made the good A/D and D/A delta-sigma converters starting in the late 1980s we used to use.

I had some of those boards until recently. They were fairly high dynamic range.

I was hoping the ISA adapter could have worked for an ISA sound and DSP card I made way back when.
Since I designed and bread-boarded it, I might actually be able to get it to work ! But that board was hand wired and not that great, noise wise.

Making a hi-fi card wouldn't be that complicated tbh. But reusing older chipsets for cards with legacy features is a bit more problematic.

songoffall wrote on 2023-12-06, 11:27:

So there's these Chinese sound cards that cost peanuts, using reclaimed Yamaha XG, ESS Solo-1 and other chips. But they seem to be extremely barebones, with sub-par or missing components and features.

where can I find a chinese solo-1 card for peanuts? ebay searches coming up empty

maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:02:

songoffall wrote on 2023-12-06, 11:27:

So there's these Chinese sound cards that cost peanuts, using reclaimed Yamaha XG, ESS Solo-1 and other chips. But they seem to be extremely barebones, with sub-par or missing components and features.

where can I find a chinese solo-1 card for peanuts? ebay searches coming up empty

you can find soundcards showing ess or yamaha chips ... but they all have cmi chips if you really read the text... (like its normal from chinese sellers)...

The times you can get cheap yamaha or ess cards are over.

DerBaum wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:12:

you can find soundcards showing ess or yamaha chips ... but they all have cmi chips if you really read the text... (like its nor […]
Show full quote

maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:02:

songoffall wrote on 2023-12-06, 11:27:

So there's these Chinese sound cards that cost peanuts, using reclaimed Yamaha XG, ESS Solo-1 and other chips. But they seem to be extremely barebones, with sub-par or missing components and features.

where can I find a chinese solo-1 card for peanuts? ebay searches coming up empty

you can find soundcards showing ess or yamaha chips ... but they all have cmi chips if you really read the text... (like its normal from chinese sellers)...

The times you can get cheap yamaha or ess cards are over.
Screenshot 2024-01-06 171338.png

That's not entirely correct. It's more like a lottery. Some cards are true Yamaha and ESS cards. Some are CMI chips repainted as Yamaha and ESS chips. I have both a Yamaha XG and ESS Solo-1 copy, both have been tested with their corresponding drivers. The Yamaha one can be identified by the presence of an additional codec chip on the board. I made a topic on it:

A very strange Yamaha XG YMF744B-R sound card

maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:02:

songoffall wrote on 2023-12-06, 11:27:

So there's these Chinese sound cards that cost peanuts, using reclaimed Yamaha XG, ESS Solo-1 and other chips. But they seem to be extremely barebones, with sub-par or missing components and features.

where can I find a chinese solo-1 card for peanuts? ebay searches coming up empty

They are on Aliexpress and the like. You can never be sure if you're getting a true ESS card. If you really want one, I can gift you one of mine.

maxtherabbit wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:02:

songoffall wrote on 2023-12-06, 11:27:

So there's these Chinese sound cards that cost peanuts, using reclaimed Yamaha XG, ESS Solo-1 and other chips. But they seem to be extremely barebones, with sub-par or missing components and features.

where can I find a chinese solo-1 card for peanuts? ebay searches coming up empty

Here's a couple I found on Aliexpress for about $3

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005004721112847.html

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005005425222313.html

songoffall wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:51:

Here's a couple I found on Aliexpress for about $3

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005004721112847.html

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005005425222313.html

both say cmi in the text and show a ess picture...

DerBaum wrote on 2024-01-06, 17:21:

songoffall wrote on 2024-01-06, 16:51:

Here's a couple I found on Aliexpress for about $3

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005004721112847.html

https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005005425222313.html

both say cmi in the text and show a ess picture...

and in the top description they say ESS. As I said, it's more of a gamble. You never know what you're gonna get.

songoffall wrote on 2024-01-06, 20:28:

...and in the top description they say ESS. As I said, it's more of a gamble. You never know what you're gonna get.

where? except on the picture all text says cmi chip...

It even says its pci express wich is also clearly not the case.

To me it is clear that you will get a cmi card.