Awe64 is not worth it for dos.

Sb32 was about the tops for dos gaming, as concerns real SB cards.

A GUS or PAS might be a better choice, as they can do a better job of 'mostly' emulating MT32 music.

AWE64 was mostly a windows only card, as i recall.

I disagree that the AWE64 isn't worth it for DOS; a lot of mid-to-late 90s games had native support for AWE MIDI and sounded pretty good with it. But, since you have a X2GS daughterboard that should also sound amazing. As long as you're happy with the noise level of the SB16, there's not a lot of extra benefit to be gained by going with the AWE64 and its MIDI synth sounds worse (to me) than the X2GS. I have a CT2230 SB16 with a X2GS and an AWE64, and while the audio output quality is better (to my ears/speakers) on the AWE card the built-in MIDI samples just can't compete with the X2GS. So, unless you're nostalgic for the unique MIDI sound of the AWE64 (I was and like having it around as an option) I'd just stick with what you have already.

wierd_w wrote on 2024-04-13, 03:51:

Awe64 is not worth it for dos.

Sb32 was about the tops for dos gaming, as concerns real SB cards.
AWE64 was mostly a windows only card, as i recall.

AWE64 is functionally the same in DOS as the SB32 was, just sounds cleaner, and isn't as easily memory expandable (value's stuck at 512kb of extra memory). The AWE64 bundled DOS games even (Magic Carpet 2 and Eradicator are DOS games that use AWE soundfonts). You may be confused with the ES1370-based SBPCI64

I used to have an sb32 with 2mb installed.

I remember that it DID have an 'mt32' soundfont, that was 512k in size, but the actual usefulness was hit and miss.

I remember LAN partying with people who had awe64s, and did not feel impressed. The vintage drivers were 'heavier' and harder to get behaving right, the card was more optimized for windows, and only had 512k of soundbank ram.

I had noisy desktop speakers regardless, so ground hiss was always going to happen for me regardless.

I would concur about keeping the sertashop wavetable solution. Much better samples, easier configuration.

The only 'heavy' part of the AWE64 driver is just the optional WaveGuide software synth that feels there to meet a bulletpoint, but isn't the fault of the hardware and is not required. You could even install that for a SB32...

MadMac_5 wrote on 2024-04-13, 04:06:

I disagree that the AWE64 isn't worth it for DOS; a lot of mid-to-late 90s games had native support for AWE MIDI and sounded pretty good with it. But, since you have a X2GS daughterboard that should also sound amazing. As long as you're happy with the noise level of the SB16, there's not a lot of extra benefit to be gained by going with the AWE64 and its MIDI synth sounds worse (to me) than the X2GS. I have a CT2230 SB16 with a X2GS and an AWE64, and while the audio output quality is better (to my ears/speakers) on the AWE card the built-in MIDI samples just can't compete with the X2GS. So, unless you're nostalgic for the unique MIDI sound of the AWE64 (I was and like having it around as an option) I'd just stick with what you have already.

I assume those games also support Wavetable MIDI?

Is there a way to clean up the noise levels of my SB16?

Lowpass filtering?

The issue is with the amplifier and filtering solution baked into the card.

Hissy audio was a significant issue back then, and 'the same problems' existed in most amplified desktop speakers. (Hence my statement about awe64's better amp and filter being moot, with my speakers, bitd)

Aggressive lowpass would clip the frequencies that carry the hiss, but may crush some low freq audio as well (bass, for instance)

No magic bullet for analog audio, i'm afraid.

Some SB16 models have hanging note and DMA clicking bugs. In contrast, AWE64 cards don't suffer from those, but they are still subject to the MIDI stuttering bug with high sampling rates. Also, AWE64 cards use CQM for FM synth music, while (non-Vibra) SB16 cards use genuine OPL3. More info can be found in these threads:

• Sound Blaster 16 Bugs and Deficiencies Summary
• Sound Blaster: From best to worst

Also, the built-in wavetable synth of the AWE64 is not as good as the X2GS that you're currently using. However, you can buy an adapter from Serdashop which lets you use the X2GS (or other wavetable daughterboards) on the AWE64 via the gameport.

Lylat1an wrote on 2024-04-13, 03:45:

My research says that the AWE cards are basically SB16s with their own MIDI synthesis built-in, but they need CPU power to use it.

AWE32's synthesis is hardware based.

Last I checked AWE64 has hardware synthesis for up to 32 voices. The extra 32 are software and rely on the CPU, but you can simply not use them.

The AWE's and SB32 have the fine EMU8000 synthesizer chip by EMU systems.

It's being supported natively by Protected-Mode games (DOS4GW games) that use third-party sound/music systems (MILES etc).

On such games, the EMU8000 can sound like a nice, entry class wavetable card.

The downside is the sound font here. On plain DOS, there's no utility supplied to upload a better sound font.

The only use that extra AWE RAM has is for playing back Amiga modules, I think.

Impulse Tracker and other MOD programs do support the EMU8000 natively and can use it to provided high-quality mixing.

To anyone into MOD music, the EMU8k is a really really nice thing.

If a dedicated EMU8000 card is being used (Goldfinch), the EMU8000 can have all 32 channels for free use (if software supports it).

On regular the AWEs, though, merely 30 channels are being available, due to the OPL3 chip "stealing" 2 channels (left/right) of the DAC.

I'm just saying, because some complex MOD files use 32 channels.
They usually won't sound as nice as they could on EMU8000, because of this circumstances.

I had a system with an AWE32 in (a CT2760), but found I actually used a waveblaster header card (DB60XG/NEC XR385) and external modules (MT-32/SC-55) far more than any native AWE32 mode in games. The standard sample set is okay, but not great.

Personally, I would get more use out of the SB16 + wavetable board, since it's supported in more games than native AWE(32|64). I don't think there is a perfect Soundblaster card though.

While it only really works under Windows (including DOS games though), you would gain the ability to use standard SF2 soundfonts instead of the proprietary Dream format the X2GS requires. There's also some weirdness under DOS when it comes to MPU-401 emulation using the internal wavetable, although external MIDI devices work fine. Basically, most of the AWE specific stuff works best under Windows.

A second, more obscure benefit would be the ability to apply effects to FM, which can sound interesting. This one seems to require DOS, the drivers apply effects differently for whatever reason. CQM, which may or may not be a downgrade depending on which SB16 you have.

An AWE32/SB32 would come with the same features, as well as cheaper to upgrade memory, a wavetable header, and potentially the CT1747 chip with internal OPL3 circuitry, which also supports effects. AWE32 CT2760 for instance has all of that, but unfortunately that makes it rather expensive.

Oh and one last thing to confuse the matter, these can suffer from hanging note bugs to a varying extent, much like SB16s, but unlike AW64s. CT1747 cards don't have the more common variant that plagues Doom etc. as far as I know, but can still rarely get random stuck high notes.

Which SB16 are we talking about here? And which AWE64? As already pointed out there are big differences between models, which could materially affect the answer to your question. In particular how bad the MIDI bugs are on them and whether the SB16 has real OPL3 or CQM

That said, why "or"?

You can have two sound cards installed at the same time on different resources and choose which to use in your software. Moreover using one card for digital audio and the other for MIDI avoids the one bug all SB16 cards (up to and including AWE64) have: slowdowns in MIDI music when high-quality DA samples are playing at same time on same card.

A setup might be:

SB16 - A220 I7 D1 H5 T6 P330
AWE64 - A240 I5 D3 H6 T6 P300 E620
(if both cards are PnP you can use the lines above directly with SET BLASTER in AUTOEXEC.BAT and then use UNISOUND to initialize them)

You then tell the sound setup of your game to use A240 I5 D3 H6 for sound effects and P330 for general MIDI music. Or A220 I7 D1 H5 for sound effects and E620 for Emu8k AWE music. The only thing you can't commonly set is the AdLib OPL3 address. However that's not a problem as OPL3 is write-only, so FM music will come out of both cards (unless you mute it).

dionb wrote on 2024-04-14, 11:49:

That said, why "or"?

You can have two sound cards installed at the same time on different resources and choose which to use in your software. Moreover using one card for digital audio and the other for MIDI avoids the one bug all SB16 cards (up to and including AWE64) have: slowdowns in MIDI music when high-quality DA samples are playing at same time on same card.

A good point, that one. I'd like to add that this should also solve any hanging note bug you might have. My SB16 CT2940 is a buggy mess in Doom if I try to use it for digital sound as well as midi out, but if I let my GUS handle the digital part, the midi interface works perfectly.

exobot wrote on 2024-04-14, 12:45:

A good point, that one. I'd like to add that this should also solve any hanging note bug you might have. My SB16 CT2940 is a buggy mess in Doom if I try to use it for digital sound as well as midi out, but if I let my GUS handle the digital part, the midi interface works perfectly.

If you already have the cards, it's fine to use them. But if you are buying, I had a YMF719 card paired with a SB16. The SB16 has CQM, while the YMF has OPL4 and also ran MIDI duties. The YMF has cleaner output, as well as supporting WSS. Currently I switched the YMF to a PicoGUS, adding in GUS support was a bigger win versus having WSS when I already had 16bit SB.

The EMU8000 can do some neat tricks, but for just great music in games, your current wavetable board already has better samples.

Lylat1an wrote on 2024-04-13, 03:45:

I My research says that the AWE cards are basically SB16s with their own MIDI synthesis built-in, but they need CPU power to use it.

Thats how I think of them.
Just as people have a Roland SC55 AND Serda X2 AND multiple other midi modules as they all sound different. It's nice to have AWE as well to compare the differences.
If it's worth the cost comes down to personal taste. I wouldn't consider the AWE an upgrade to your existing setup, just a different alternative.