What OS?

DOS doesn't use any acceleration features of a VGA card, it's just about how fast it can get data to the screen. I'd not expect any significant difference between ATi RageII+, S3 Virge and TNT2 there. VESA SVGA support be improved by an S3 or TNT2, but that's about it. There is a handful of DOS Voodoo games, they need the original Voodoo1.

In Win9x things are different. 2D acceleration is used in desktop and games, as is 3D. The ATi doesn't do 3D but has decent 2D acceleration. The other two wouldn't improve much there. 3D is another matter. Virge is notoriously slow, TNT2 is excellent - and not even that much overkill - it was only released 4 months after the K6/2-400, so you would have found them installed in systems together.

Tbh, I'd say K6-233 with ATi and Voodoo 1 would be a good match, K6/2-400 with TNT2 and/or Voodoo2 (if you could get it to work) equally. Voodoo3 PCI would be marvellous of course, but with a significant price tag.

don't mean to be a dampener but k6 isn't anywhere as good for multimedia as intel in my testing (well back in 2007) anyway how bout some photos? i love IBM architecture

dionb wrote on 2020-05-10, 23:16:

There is a handful of DOS Voodoo games, they need the original Voodoo1.

A few of the other APIs are supported under DOS, i.e. Speedy3d, etc. Not every card from that era provided a DOS API and few titles targeted them anyway. Game developers had largely moved to Windows by the time 3d accelerators became common.

Thanks everybody!

So it seems the TNT would be the way to go! (it seems it's a M64 model, but I guess the PCI bus will be the bottleneck here)
Unfortunately it won't be doing a Voodoo2 along with the TNT2, because there are just 3 PCI slots. I already have a LAN card in it, and want to add USB 2.0 as well. So will have to choose which one I will use.

It's now running Windows 98 SE. Had some of the updates from the "service pack 3"... but it seems languages have mixed up a bit (Win98 Dutch version).

This little IBM will be used for gaming mostly, and "just to be there". This was the PC my dad brought home in '97 or so when I was a kid and I just needed to have it when I saw it. Major improvement over the 386 we had then!
The upgrades I already did were basically the ones I wanted to have, but all I could get was the 3DFX (Monster 2 8MB back then) and we went straight on to a P4-1.7 and GF2 MX200 afterwards.

About the K6-series: I know it's not the most powerful multimedia processor, but this is wat I had back then and I like this particular model Aptiva.
I could pop in a Cyrix M2 or a Intel MMX, but these won't gain much over the K6-2.
Besides, I also have other systems running, including K6-III+, P3-450 and IBM NetVista P3-933 (all with AGP graphics). So if the Aptiva hasn't got enough power, there's always the next step.

As for pictures: Proud to share!
When I was typing this post yesterday, I was in bed, going to sleep right after. So pics had to wait a bit. But here they are:

Still got all buttons and 5,25" covers!

Left side does have some damage unfortunately, but still in one piece.

Just love the air vent on top, stylish and it fits the lean design 😀

Backside. On-board everything you'd expect and more. Still have the slot cover I removed for the CF-reader stored inside the case. Modem is original, LAN was added where the old Voodoo2 was placed before.

Looking clean on the inside, and didn't find lots of dust when I bought it. This wan has been taken good care for!
Had to add a molex splitter to get more length for the CF reader, so got a spare connector at the bottom of the case.
Not sure what to do with it, but whatever. Might add a quiet fan in there 😀

Single SDRAM module, 64MB PC100. Maximum cacheable for the Aladdin IV chip.
When I add more RAM, performance in benchmarks drop a little.
Also the system is set to 66MHZ FSB. It should support 60, 66, 75 and 83MHz, but at 75 everything will be unstable and 83 won't even let me boot at all. Max multiplier is 4.5, and fortunately there's a K6-2 400 CxT processor that will happily run 2x -> 6x 😀
Also had the K6-2 333 running at 4.5*66 (300MHz) but I now have 100MHz more 😀

No Voodoo2 isn't an issue in terms of performance, a TNT2-M64 is pretty equivalent. You just lose native GLide and "image quality" (Voodoos have that lovely fuzzy effect). Voodoo3 PCI would give you those and overall similar performance - but you'd lose 32b colour in 3D (although with these specs you probably don't have the performance to do 32b sensibly anyway).

PCI TNT2 + Voodoo 1 is what this PC needs IMO

appiah4 wrote on 2020-05-11, 11:46:

PCI TNT2 + Voodoo 1 is what this PC needs IMO

That would need a fourth PCI slot, which is not present unfortunately.

dionb wrote on 2020-05-11, 09:29:

No Voodoo2 isn't an issue in terms of performance, a TNT2-M64 is pretty equivalent. You just lose native GLide and "image quality" (Voodoos have that lovely fuzzy effect). Voodoo3 PCI would give you those and overall similar performance - but you'd lose 32b colour in 3D (although with these specs you probably don't have the performance to do 32b sensibly anyway).

Indeed: the GLide would be nice, but for now it seems the TNT2 will do the job as well.
Think I can live with it quality-wise, since my K6-3 system is about to get a Voodoo 3 3000 AGP (instead of the GF4 it has now) 😀

I hope I manage to get a deal for the PCI Voodoo 3 trade sooner or later 😀

Found that AGP Voodoo 3 recently, hidden in some nameless Pentium 3 system I bought along with the Aptiva (and 15 other systems).
Threw that motherboard away, since it was seriously damaged:
- 10 crappy caps, about to blow sky high
- Slot 1 side guides were broken off (CPU was in place, P3-550)
- 2 out of 3 memory seats broken off
- primary IDE pins bent off (plus some broken off)
- both serial + parallel ports torn away
- 2 PCI slots bent downwards (probably some broken contacts ass well)
- AGP slot was broken both on front and back
Also:
- hard disk sounds like the heads thrash themselves into the rotating axel (and obviously does not work either)
- CPU fan didn't work
- didn't risk testing the PSU with this damage. Also looks like it has a ton of dust collected.

Threating a motherboard that way should be illegal! It's a miracle the graphics card, CPU and CD-drives survived!
I guess somebody was being funny, and lolled himself... about how somebody was going to just plug it in, and call the PC "sparky" sooner or later?

WTF, that is some serious abuse - and given the AGP slot was broken too I's a miracle the V3 survived. Still, I assume it helped get the V3 for a nice low price 😉

Must say I managed to get my V3-3000PCI in a similar way - totally abused i430VX board/system covered in cobwebs and tobacco tar. Stank to high heaven and motherboard and case were total loss. But the Voodoo (and a decent SB16) were more than worth it.

In that case just use the TNT2. If you want to play Glide games give nGlide a try, it should run OK on a K6-2/400 (I would presume) for most Glide only games at 640x480 - for the rest you have OpenGL and DirectX

Seems like my Aptiva is getting stuck on the Rage II+...

I put in my M64 and Windows detected the card. I installed the driver (Nvidia version 71.something) which I always use for all my Gforce 2 and older cards.

Windows won't boot and the thing gets too hot to touch within minutes. And yes, the card has the same passive sink you see on all TNT 2 cards.

To the test: some other PCI graphics adapters which are confirmed working on other computers.
- Diamond Stealth 64 video (S3 968) lets Windows install drivers, temps stay low. Of course no 3D but clear image. Windows takes forever to boot.
- Elsa Winner 1000 (S3 Trio64) and no boot at all.
- nameless S3 Virge won't let Windows start (gives a screen full of random character)
- Matrox MGA Millennium lets Windows boot and install drivers, temps feel acceptable. Beautiful image of course, but 3D is not fully DX6 capable so no 3Dmark 99 benchmarks.

PCI bus is running at half FSB speed so it runs at 33MHz. Might this Aptiva on steroids have issues with its PCI slots? Does that make the TNT 2 too hot and make other cards fail?

(Edit)

Windows also won't allow the extra USB ports (NEC 101). Installing drivers went fine, and after reboot it's only blue screen time.
Switched to VIA 6202 USB ports and Windows won't boot.

Should I set PCI IRQ manual? Fiddle with bus mastering?

Maybe it's time to get my multimeter and check some voltages as well...

dionb wrote on 2020-05-11, 14:43:

WTF, that is some serious abuse - and given the AGP slot was broken too I's a miracle the V3 survived. Still, I assume it helped get the V3 for a nice low price

Indeed it did. 14 computers for about €30 a piece without knowing what's inside... And managed to get some money off because some really bad shaped ones. It turned out to be quite interesting 😀 some P3 stuff, some Thunderbirds, A MMX that sounds like a vacuum cleaner, the meanest, leanest AT server case on wheels you could imagine and four computers based on voodoo cards!

(Edit2)

Had a closer look at the motherboard to see if there are bad capacitors, but seem all to be fine.

While running the onboard ATI chip doesn't get too hot as well...
Chip set remains cool, CPU sink cool, ram cool... PSU blows cool air...Hard drive feels nicely warm but nothing special... Lan and modem almost no heat at all...

I hope you rescue the voodoo computers to get the voodoo hardware? Voodoo anything is rare and good demand.

Cheers,

pentiumspeed wrote on 2020-05-11, 22:43:

I hope you rescue the voodoo computers to get the voodoo hardware? Voodoo anything is rare and good demand.

Cheers,

So far I got a working Voodoo 3 3000 AGP (the one I mentioned), a voodoo 1 (seems to be recognised by win98, needs further testing) and this voodoo 2 that might or might not work in other systems. And a Packerd Bell computer with onboard Voodoo 3, 8 MB and very low clocked (sold that one already, I'm not into PB). So yes, the 3DFX harvest was pretty neat 😀 but as well got some other interesting cards, among them some GF 4 Ti and slot 1 stuff.

Still 4 more to examine, but those have less interesting hardware, probably TNT2 and Gforce 2 on socket A motherboards, way too new for me (8086 up to SS7 are my favourites). And way too much tot keep it all 🙁

waterbeesje wrote on 2020-05-12, 11:46:

[...]

And a Packerd Bell computer with onboard Voodoo 3, 8 MB and very low clocked (sold that one already, I'm not into PB).

Argh, if you ever come across one again, give me a message. For oddball reasons (basically an inside joke with an ex-colleague from the PB helpdesk 20 years ago) I'm trying to make the ultimate PB MSI-6168 system. I thought I had it made, with a motherboard that would even run Tualatin on a Slot-T, an SLC SDD, huge Zalman cooler etc in a pristine PB case. Then the *&%)*&%)* video memory of the V3 died on me. No problem, I had another board, but despite being exact same rev (2.0), it utterly refuses to boot with any Coppermine CPUs. So I'm eying another one because these rev 2.0 things *should* be able to do CuMine.

dionb wrote on 2020-05-12, 19:58:

waterbeesje wrote on 2020-05-12, 11:46:

[...]

And a Packerd Bell computer with onboard Voodoo 3, 8 MB and very low clocked (sold that one already, I'm not into PB).

Argh, if you ever come across one again, give me a message. For oddball reasons (basically an inside joke with an ex-colleague from the PB helpdesk 20 years ago) I'm trying to make the ultimate PB MSI-6168 system. I thought I had it made, with a motherboard that would even run Tualatin on a Slot-T, an SLC SDD, huge Zalman cooler etc in a pristine PB case. Then the *&%)*&%)* video memory of the V3 died on me. No problem, I had another board, but despite being exact same rev (2.0), it utterly refuses to boot with any Coppermine CPUs. So I'm eying another one because these rev 2.0 things *should* be able to do CuMine.

It's been on the net for about three weeks here in NL, didn't come across it? Anyway if I come across another one I'll let you know for sure!
This one came with a 500 Katmai, tried a 600 coppermine but didn't take it. Also Mendocino on slotket refused... Perhaps some lack of bios support?

waterbeesje wrote on 2020-05-12, 20:53:

[...]

It's been on the net for about three weeks here in NL, didn't come across it? Anyway if I come across another one I'll let you know for sure!
This one came with a 500 Katmai, tried a 600 coppermine but didn't take it. Also Mendocino on slotket refused... Perhaps some lack of bios support?

Was it the 1.0 (black ports) or 2.0 (PC99 colour ports)? 1.0 doesn't support Coppermine, not sure of Mendocino status. 2.0 should support both.

BIOS issues are possible but unlikely - I've tried a lot of different BIOS, both MSI retail and PB, and none changed CPUs accepted.

Don't know if it was v1 or V2, didn't give it too much attention. Just checked what CPU is might support and since it didn't take coppermine I didn't feel like keeping it. Looking at some of pics it had a 600MHz P3, not a 500... (Dxdiag). Didn't make pics from the motherboard so I don't know for sure which motherboard...

Had a little voltage checkup on the (AT) psu.
Put my multimeter on the connector, pushed in gentle next to the power wires to make sure power is measured directly on the connector.

Results on ATX connectors:
+12v = 12.41v
-12v = -12.31v
+5v = 5.14v (all four pins)
-5v = -4.94v
Power good = 5.14v
Between power ground wires there is no current resistance (0 ohms) so lazy me only measured on one gnd wire. Feels safe enough.
Measured on a molex connector and got identical +5v and +12v values.

To me it seems all voltages are perfectly fine within 5%.

Overheating graphics cards have nothing to do with the power supply overvolting.

Still makes me wonder why the TNT 2, Voodoo 2 and S3 graphics cards won't work as they should... I Will test these with another system soon.

(And this thread is no longer just "what graphics to choose")...

(Edit)

Have run all graphics cards on a different motherboard, a Vtech MB520ND with Triton 2 chipset and MMX200 @233 (I always tend to OC my MMX200 when possible) and a prepared CF card I always have laying around.

To get some easy test I ran Dos 6.22 with just Himem loaden, and ran benchmarks: Superscape 1.0c, PCPlayerBench and quake timedemo 640x480 a few times in a row and had no difficulties.
Except the TNT 2 was overheating again. So I felt like getting a 6cm fan and a cable wrap to make it sound like a kitchen hood.
Now it remains cool and touchable!

Ok, so the TNT2 remains cool and back into the Aptiva. Running tests in DOS (Phils DOS bench set) makes the machine fly without issues.

Windows is a different story.
Ran safe mode, uninstalled all graphics drivers (both device manager and software) and rebooted. Default VGA driver gives no problem.

Installed graphics driver for Nvidia 71 and rebooted. System hangs, won't even make it to the desktop. Safe mode, applied 640x480x16c and reboot without issues. Changing to any other resolution will make the system have to reboot (no surprise) and then hangs on boot.

So far no good, but I'm going to try different drivers soon... Already downloaded v 40something, 20sometjing and few others.
Will update soon 😀

And once again tried to make it running, wi h very little success.

So far the computer will boot fine if the display is set to 640x480 at 16 colours. Changing to anything else will make the system hang just befor entering the desktop. Sometimes there is some rubbish colour in the to left corner, sometimes the screen is just black (no cursor blinking).

Tried with these versions of drivers for Nvidia grsphics:
71.84, 44.03, 30.82, 21.81.

Install one, reboot, hang, safe mode, set to 640x480, reboot to desktop, set colours to 256c, reboot, hang, reboot to safe mode, remove software and drivers. Reboot, install another and so on.

Could this be faulty ram chips?
Since the card is overheating without a relatively huge fan, could it be shorting? Cant see, because it is bga... The metal sink remains cool now, but the PCB will still heat up near the PCI slot,mainly on the "up" side without components.
Could it be a faulty bios, which also is causing the overheating (and how to tell)?
Do the PCI specs of the Aptiva fulfill the needs of the TNT2 at all?
Does this card require some odd drivers? I can't really find anything that would make this card unique, not even a brand name.

I'm getting lost here... And I'm considering to just restore it to the K6-233 and 32MB Ram it originally came with, with only the ATI display... maybe my voodoo 1 will make this system run faster.