By the way, can S3 MeTaL be classified as the independent 3d API?

Gamecollector wrote:

By the way, can S3 MeTaL be classified as the independent 3d API?

I'm actually trying to figure that out. I suspect it relies on another 3D API actually and merely extends it. Perhaps my newly discovered metal.h/metal.lib (and s3tc.lib?) will give me some clues.

Reading metal.h, it does not call OpenGL or Direct3D. so... yes? It looks pretty complete to me. I'm seeing more than just texture compression and handling, there's a lot in here about buffers, masks, registers, triangles, framebuffer, z-buffer, lighting, shading... oh: and DOS compatibility for compiling (though doubtful anyone used it). Anyhow, it's more info than we had before.

Done a lot of thinking about this and I am struck by the BitBoys Pyramid3D: "we only made our own API because Direct3D didn't do what we wanted at the time." (summary from an old Beyond3D thread). I think this is the same situation. They came up with texture compression, it wasn't natively supported by all hardware out there nor Direct3D, so they made their own (complete) API. Later, after the fact, their texture compression was added to all major APIs.

But I'm no 3D expert so what do I know (calls in the experts).

Why should the header file call OpenGL or Direct3D? Of course you could define preprocessor macros to "create your own API", but that wouldn't be more than renaming function calls. The DLLs or LIBs could in theory still call OpenGL or Direct3D. But I agree with you that that's probably not the case.

Regarding texture compression: S3TC was included in DirectX 6 (because S3 paid MS to do that) which was released in August 1998. Savage3D was introduced at the 1998 E3 Expo which seems to have taken place in May. Assuming developers had early access to DirectX 6 there is not much of a gap IMO.
In OpenGL S3 could introduce their own extension without asking others.
Did Unreal support S3 MeTaL in the first release on? Unreal was released in May 1998 so this makes some sense and would explain why S3 MeTaL is (probably) not supported in anything except UnrealEngine1 games.

Well, it looks like MeTaL is supported only in UE1 games... I can't find others games/tech demos referencies.
Original Unreal was ddraw/glide/powervr. Other 3 renderers (d3d/ogl/metal) were added later.

There's an S3QUAKE3 demo (Q3TEST-based) and patch (1.11ish-based) out there, not sure what that uses anymore (probably GL + S3TC extensions + unneccessary vendor lock-in) and not sure where to get it either.

For the patch it's not to be confused with the compress textures cvar which loads all normal textures as compressed S3TC - the S3 version could load DDS textures natively and there were some special maps with high resolution DDS textures to support it. and like everything else that used S3TC then for obvious photoshop filter jobs, it does not age well. 😀

idspispopd wrote:

Why should the header file call OpenGL or Direct3D? Of course you could define preprocessor macros to "create your own API", but that wouldn't be more than renaming function calls. The DLLs or LIBs could in theory still call OpenGL or Direct3D. But I agree with you that that's probably not the case.

My theory for a while was that S3 MeTaL was simply an extension to Direct3D and OpenGL prior to becoming a vendor extension built into drivers, and there would have been some visible dependency, either in the header or the library. While it still could be obfuscated, this does not appear to be the case.

I originally mentioned this theory in the Beyond3D thread: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/s3-savage- … etal-api.54670/

idspispopd wrote:

Regarding texture compression: S3TC was included in DirectX 6 (because S3 paid MS to do that) which was released in August 1998. Savage3D was introduced at the 1998 E3 Expo which seems to have taken place in May. Assuming developers had early access to DirectX 6 there is not much of a gap IMO.
In OpenGL S3 could introduce their own extension without asking others.
Did Unreal support S3 MeTaL in the first release on? Unreal was released in May 1998 so this makes some sense and would explain why S3 MeTaL is (probably) not supported in anything except UnrealEngine1 games.

This historical take on things really sheds some light on this, kudos. 😀 "Did Unreal support S3 MeTaL in the first release on?" <- question for leileilol?

Gamecollector wrote:

Well, it looks like MeTaL is supported only in UE1 games... I can't find others games/tech demos referencies.
Original Unreal was ddraw/glide/powervr. Other 3 renderers (d3d/ogl/metal) were added later.

Agreed. But when -exactly- was MeTaLDrv.dll introduced? earliest build?
Earliest metal.dll I can find so far, 1.0.0.1, is 10/28/1998.

The "earliest" 1.0.0.0 versions seen on SavageNews:
http://www.savagenews.com/drivers/s3/s3metal.php
for the Savage 2000 obviously are later builds (since the Savage 2000 came later), making the first one they record to be version 1.0.0.1 for Savage IV and Savage3D. Again, nearly all of these are now mirrored here: http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=726

leileilol wrote:

There's an S3QUAKE3 demo (Q3TEST-based) and patch (1.11ish-based) out there, not sure what that uses anymore (probably GL + S3TC extensions + unneccessary vendor lock-in) and not sure where to get it either.

Hm, yeah, s3quake3.zip seems to have disappeared off the web. It's probably buried in the Internet Archive somewhere.
Here's some discussion on this, one post in here describes its contents:
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/archi … p/t-378781.html
http://www.old-games.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=24812
http://www.bluesnews.com/s/9721/s3-quake-iii-arena-stuff

Gamecollector wrote:

Well, it looks like MeTaL is supported only in UE1 games... I can't find others games/tech demos referencies.

That's what I thought, but Mobygames lists "Der zerstreute Pharao" under "Drivers/APIs Supported : S3 MeTaL". That's probably why Stiletto included this as "need confirmed and verified, please debunk".
Maybe I'll just get the game from ebay to check, seems cheap enough. [EDIT: OK, won a cheap auction, will check. I don't have the hardware so I will ask for help if necessary.] It's just that the original release is from 2004 and the release sold on ebay is from 2008 stating "Vista / XP ready" so I don't know if those are identical.
Also it doesn't make much sense for a 2004 game to support S3 MeTaL.

Stiletto wrote:

My theory for a while was that S3 MeTaL was simply an extension to Direct3D and OpenGL prior to becoming a vendor extension built into drivers, and there would have been some visible dependency, either in the header or the library. While it still could be obfuscated, this does not appear to be the case.

Another reason why this doesn't make too much sense is that Unreal runs quite good with S3 MeTaL AFAIK while it didn't do that for quite a while with Direct3D or OpenGL (also AFAIK).

idspispopd wrote:

That's what I thought, but Mobygames lists "Der zerstreute Pharao" under "Drivers/APIs Supported : S3 MeTaL". That's probably why Stiletto included this as "need confirmed and verified, please debunk".

Whoa, I'd forgotten about those lists. I should probably fix them up based on vetz's research for future readers. But yeah, the MeTaL list is still pretty weak.

idspispopd wrote:

Another reason why this doesn't make too much sense is that Unreal runs quite good with S3 MeTaL AFAIK while it didn't do that for quite a while with Direct3D or OpenGL (also AFAIK).

Okay, further nails in the coffin of the theory that MeTaL isn't a "true proprietary 3D API" - I like it. 😀

I have tried to fix "glide API supported" list on Mobygames. "Your changes must be confirmed from an approved source" after 2 weeks.
F*** Mobygames, I will maintain my list, with blackjack and hookers...
You think Vetz is the approved source for this *censored* site?

P.S. UE1 games renderers:
Unreal - see above.
Star Trek: the Next Generation - Klingon Honor Guard - ddraw/glide/powervr. Patch 1.1 adds d3d/ogl. No S3 MeTaL support.
TNN Outdoor Pro Hunter (30 Nov 1998) - ddraw/glide/powervr. Patch 2.0 (15 Mar 1999?) adds d3d/ogl. No S3 MeTaL support. The patch updates the Unreal Engine to the version 200 (from install messages) so it looks like the UE1 MeTaL support was added later.
Unreal: Return to Na Pali (31 May 1999) - all 6 renderers.
Dr. Brain Action/Reaction - all 6 renderers.
Unreal Tournament - ddraw/d3d/ogl/glide/metal. Sgldrv.dll is installed but can't be selected. (WinXp? No real hardware?)
Nerf ArenaBlast - same as UT.
The Wheel of Time - same as UT.
Deus Ex - same as UT.
Rune - all 6 renderers.
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - the Fallen - ddraw/d3d/ogl/glide. Metaldrv.dll is installed but can't be selected. No sgldrv.dll.
Clive Barker's Undying - ddraw/d3d/glide.
Adventure Pinball: Forgotten Island - ddraw/d3d/glide/metal.
X-Com: Enforcer - ddraw/d3d/glide.
Rune: Halls of Valhalla - all 6 renderers.
Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - ddraw/d3d.
Tactical Ops: Assault on Terror - ddraw/d3d/ogl/glide/metal. Sgldrv.dll is installed but can't be selected.
Mobile Forces - d3d.
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - ddraw/d3d.
Disney's Brother Bear - ddraw/d3d.
Duke Nukem Forever - don't have this game, can't test.

Gamecollector wrote:

I have tried to fix "glide API supported" list on Mobygames. "Your changes must be confirmed from an approved source" after 2 weeks.
F*** Mobygames, I will maintain my list, with blackjack and hookers...
You think Vetz is the approved source for this *censored* site?

I meant my own lists here at VOGONS.

But Mobygames, yes, I have tried too - and yet the process continues to just stall. I am not sure how to proceed, but at some point, they must accept these fixes.

They definitely do suffer from an anal clique effect. It took me tooth and nail just to get Skullgirls through into the submission process on the assumpiton i'm making up a game because it's not in their little torrent piracy sets they mass add games from with self-approval to boost the site numbers.

Gamecollector wrote:

P.S. UE1 games renderers:
Unreal - see above.
... etc.

Awesome! What are the file dates on MetalDrv.dll for these games? 😀

There is a trouble. Unreal patch is .exe and sets the current date for all new files. Metaldrv.dll icluded.
Unreal: Return to Na Pali - 11 Jun 1999.
Dr. Brain Action/Reaction - 20 Jul 1999.
Unreal Tournament - 29 Oct 1999.
Nerf ArenaBlast - 19 Oct 1999.
The Wheel of Time - 21 Oct 1999.
Deus Ex - 7 Jun 2000.
Rune - 8 Oct 2000.
Star Trek: DS9 - the Fallen - 7 Nov 2000.
Adventure Pinball: Forgotten Island - 21 Feb 2001.
Rune: Halls of Valhalla - 15 Mar 2001.
Tactical Ops: Assault on Terror - 11 Jul 2001.

Gamecollector wrote:

There is a trouble. Unreal patch is .exe and sets the current date for all new files. Metaldrv.dll icluded. Unreal: Return to Na […]
Show full quote

There is a trouble. Unreal patch is .exe and sets the current date for all new files. Metaldrv.dll icluded.
Unreal: Return to Na Pali - 11 Jun 1999.
Dr. Brain Action/Reaction - 20 Jul 1999.
Unreal Tournament - 29 Oct 1999.
Nerf ArenaBlast - 19 Oct 1999.
The Wheel of Time - 21 Oct 1999.
Deus Ex - 7 Jun 2000.
Rune - 8 Oct 2000.
Star Trek: DS9 - the Fallen - 7 Nov 2000.
Adventure Pinball: Forgotten Island - 21 Feb 2001.
Rune: Halls of Valhalla - 15 Mar 2001.
Tactical Ops: Assault on Terror - 11 Jul 2001.

Okay, thanks much.. I mean, all this does is show when they compiled these files for the game, but still.

OK, here is what I found about "Der zerstreute Pharao". I strongly suspect that support for S3 MeTaL was a data entry error.
For starters, Mobygames is the only source for this statement.
As I wrote I got the game on Ebay. It's the 2008 re-release (Vista support stated on the box), but basically all files have a 2004 timestamp (except setup.ilg, setup.ini and some files with a timestamp from the installation or last run) so I assume that nothing has changed from the original release.
The game runs fine in Windows 8.1.
The game executable imports D3D8.DLL and D3D8D.DLL which AFAIK means that it uses Direct3D 8. (Mobygames doesn't mention Direct3D support which is why I assume the wrong check-box was selected.) I couldn't find the string "metal" in the executable. Other DLLs seem to come from 3rd parties (Microsoft, Abysmal Software, Bink, Scintilla), two (opcode.dll, opcode_d.dll) also don't contain "metal".

I PM'ed Patrick Bregger who was given as the source for the techinfo. He was very nice, but doesn't remember anything about this. (He is the #5 contributor so this was to be expected.)
He suggested to ask a mod or in the forum if any sources were given for the techinfo, it seems that mods have access to more info than normal users. I asked in the forum (http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/der-zer … b,8/dgm,207104/) but without success.

Does anybody think it would make sense to test the game with Savage hardware? (I didn't see any options for this, obviously.) Or should I call it a day and change the data on Mobygames from S3 MeTaL to Direct3D?

idspispopd wrote:

Or should I call it a day and change the data on Mobygames from S3 MeTaL to Direct3D?

No. Mobygames is beyond any help long ago. *Cutted by the internal censorship* and *again censored*...
You post this info here, this is enough.

Applying changes to MobyGames (particularly, REMOVING inaccurate information) seems to be unnecessarily difficult.

Even if it's as simple and obvious as a year correction (i.e. a late 1998 game listed as 1997 release) they'll still think you're pulling it out of your ass.

OK, I already understand that Mobygames is supposed to be quite bad in that respect. I'd still try if only as an exercise.
Back to my point: Do you guys consider the game debunked? If anybody has Savage hardware and feels the need to test the game with it please PM me.