VOGONS


First post, by BSA Starfire

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
ATi Mach 64 (win charger).JPG
Filename
ATi Mach 64 (win charger).JPG
File size
809.71 KiB
Views
3786 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM S3 968.JPG
Filename
Diamond Stealth 64 VRAM S3 968.JPG
File size
1017.72 KiB
Views
3786 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
Octek Speed 64 ARK logix 2000PV.JPG
Filename
Octek Speed 64 ARK logix 2000PV.JPG
File size
1.13 MiB
Views
3786 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
Trident 9680.JPG
Filename
Trident 9680.JPG
File size
974.91 KiB
Views
3786 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Hiya all,

I'm looking to improve the windows 3.11 GUI performance on my Cyrix 5x86 100GP system(Tomato 4DPS Ver 2.1 motherboard). Currently I am using a Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM S3 TRIO 64V+ with 1 MB RAM, it's pretty good but I'm wondering if any of these cards pictured above may be better suited? Windows 3.1 performance is not something we talk about much on here(few games used it I guess, so understandable). I can't find Windows 3.1 drivers for the Ark Logic, if anyone has them then I'd be very grateful also.
Just to clarify, I'm concerned with the Windows speed, NOT MS-DOS, I know the ARK is fastest for that already(run more than enough tests!) @ least in a SKT 7 system.
Any thought's or suggestions?

Best,
Chris

286 20MHz,1MB RAM,Trident 8900B 1MB, Conner CFA-170A.SB 1350B
386SX 33MHz,ULSI 387,4MB Ram,OAK OTI077 1MB. Seagate ST1144A, MS WSS audio
Amstrad PC 9486i, DX/2 66, 16 MB RAM, Cirrus SVGA,Win 95,SB 16
Cyrix MII 333,128MB,SiS 6326 H0 rev,ESS 1869,Win ME

Reply 1 of 36, by BSA Starfire

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Cirrus Logic Laguna 3D 5464.JPG
Filename
Cirrus Logic Laguna 3D 5464.JPG
File size
912.74 KiB
Views
3785 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
S3 TRIO 64V2 DX.JPG
Filename
S3 TRIO 64V2 DX.JPG
File size
836.69 KiB
Views
3785 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
S3 ViRGE 325.JPG
Filename
S3 ViRGE 325.JPG
File size
808.45 KiB
Views
3785 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception
SiS 6326 4 MB.JPG
Filename
SiS 6326 4 MB.JPG
File size
630.75 KiB
Views
3785 views
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Any of these four are also an option, I haven't searched for 3.11 drivers for these yet though, or even know if they exist.

286 20MHz,1MB RAM,Trident 8900B 1MB, Conner CFA-170A.SB 1350B
386SX 33MHz,ULSI 387,4MB Ram,OAK OTI077 1MB. Seagate ST1144A, MS WSS audio
Amstrad PC 9486i, DX/2 66, 16 MB RAM, Cirrus SVGA,Win 95,SB 16
Cyrix MII 333,128MB,SiS 6326 H0 rev,ESS 1869,Win ME

Reply 2 of 36, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Hi, Chris! That's an interesting tread, thank you!

If you're looking for drivers, just try win31.de

I'm more famiilar with ISA card when it comes to Win3.1, but these are my thoughts:

For maximum performace, make sure the card has..

- GDI acceleration
- YUV conversation
- hardware assisted scaling/stretching
- hardware based cursor (mouse cursor)
- support for DCI (Display Control Interface)

And if you want maxium QuickTime performace (some games use that), also try a tseng ET4000 based card.
I heard QuickTime 2.x shipps with it's own driver for it.

Anyway, the S3 cards are pretty descent.

Best reagrds, Jo22

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 3 of 36, by BSA Starfire

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Thanks for the reply and the win31.de page, that is a good resource that is new to me.

So having done some further reading of old PC mags on the 'net it looks like the Diamond S3 Vision 968, the ATI Wincharger & also the Cirrus Logic GD5464 Laguna 3D are good choices for Windows 3.11 acceleration. Also I have found drivers for all these cards. Both the ARK Logic & Trident 9680 seem to be roughly equivalent to the TRIO64 I'm using now.
I'm glad I looked into this as all the above cards are the wrong choice for MS-DOS use(apart form the ARK), either slow or very incompatible or both. So I assume the focus with them was on wIndows 3.1 GUI performance.
What would be a good(and available!) benchmark for testing windows 3.1 graphics speed? To be honest currently I'm basing my perceptions on Microsoft Arcade and how fast the fish swim in Afterdark screensaver & how well MS WORD 6 scrolls. Not exactly scientific but I guess it is at least real world.
Best,
Chris
PS still not found drivers for the ARK Logic PV2000 for windows 3.11 either, they clearly exist as 1995 magazine articles are testing the cards with that OS, can anyone help out here?

286 20MHz,1MB RAM,Trident 8900B 1MB, Conner CFA-170A.SB 1350B
386SX 33MHz,ULSI 387,4MB Ram,OAK OTI077 1MB. Seagate ST1144A, MS WSS audio
Amstrad PC 9486i, DX/2 66, 16 MB RAM, Cirrus SVGA,Win 95,SB 16
Cyrix MII 333,128MB,SiS 6326 H0 rev,ESS 1869,Win ME

Reply 4 of 36, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
BSA Starfire wrote:

Thanks for the reply

No problem. 😀

BSA Starfire wrote:

What would be a good(and available!) benchmark for testing windows 3.1 graphics speed?

I don't know much about benchmarks, but have a look a the VOGONS Benchmark archive.
I know, it's quite lacking in regards to Win3.1 (mainly DOS/Win9X), but a few progams are usable, like WinTune 1.0/2.0.

And for Win 2/3 (and OS2 1.x) there's also the PC Labs Benchmark Series..
(Sorry, no direct link. See "GUI Gallery" page.)

I don't know if this is what you're looking for, though.
There's only one utility left I know of, which also was a pure graphics benchmark (WinSpeed).
We already discussed this in the Windows 3.1 & NT Benchmark Programs thread.
The program was especially made for Win95, but ran also very nicely on Win3.1+Win32s (what an irony!).
It's also notable that this program is compatible with 16/32/64bit versions of Windows (Win3.1 to WinX).
So in theory, someone could benchmark 2D performance of his/her good ol' 386SX computer against an i7 machine. 😁
(I've added it for preservation purposes.. I hope that's okay for everyone.)

BSA Starfire wrote:

PS still not found drivers for the ARK Logic PV2000 for windows 3.11 either, they clearly exist as 1995 magazine articles are testing the cards with that OS, can anyone help out here?

Hi, the card is also known by it's chipset, the ARK2000PV.

One of the popular cards which used this was the Diamond Stealth 64 Graphics 2001.
- Not to be confused with "Diamond Stealth 64 Video 2001", which was S3 Trio64V+ based.

This is what I have found out about the card :

The ARK Logic ARK2000PVuses true 64-bit display memory
with a 64-bit graphics engine to get you all of the advantages
of PCI and VESA interfaces. It also integrates a super VGA
controller, and a high-speed interface circuit that will relieve
the heavy processing load on the CPU ... allowing greater
performance.

Specs:
*Graphics acceleration for 4, 8, 16 and 24 bit pixels
*Graphics hardware cursor 64 x 64 x 2 or 32 x 32 x 2
*Extensive graphics functions
*Display Resolutions up to 1600 x 1200
*Advanced Graphics Co-processor accelerates applications
running under GUI operating systems such as Microsoft
Windows 3.x, Nt, OS/2
[..]

All in all, this looks like a decent Win 3.1 card. 😀

I've no idea about it's hw scaling capabilities, though.

In case you're curious, I've found a bit of information here :

vgamuseum
amoretro

I've also found two drivers :

Win95 driver
Win3.1 driver (aka ark2001.zip)

I hope this was helpful.

Good luck and
Best regards, Jo22

Attachments

  • Filename
    winspeed.zip
    File size
    116.72 KiB
    Downloads
    52 downloads
    File comment
    GetmanSoft WinSpeed V1.10
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 5 of 36, by lolo799

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
BSA Starfire wrote:

What would be a good(and available!) benchmark for testing windows 3.1 graphics speed?

I used WinTune, Windsock 3.30 and Speedy for my pcmcia graphic card test under Win3.x, they work well.

PCMCIA Sound, Storage & Graphics

Reply 7 of 36, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Do you mean WinBench 95/96 ? - That's what I get when I search for it. Their readme files claim they would do support Win3.1.
WinBench 95 even says something about 286 CPUs, so it might be still a Win16 binary.
WinBench 96 mentions Video for Windows and Win32s, so it's more likely a Win32(s) thing.

Older versions of WinBench also support Win 3.0, it seems. And they're all listed in the VOGONS Benchmark archive.
But no one pointed out they would run on Win3.x so far. This is what their readme files say..

WinBench v2.5 - Win 3.0 or 3.1
WinBench v2.51 - Win 3.0 or 3.1
WinBench v3.1 - Win 3.0 or later (Release 3.1 or later recommended)
WinBench v3.11 - Win 3.0 or later (Release 3.1 or later recommended)
WinBench v4.00 - Windows 3.1, Windows for Workgroups 3.1, or Windows NT 3.1; MS-DOS 5.0, Novell DOS 7 or OS/2 2.1

Btw, WinMark was introduced in WinBench v2.5 (graphics benchmark ?).

An incomplete version of WinBench v1.1 can be found here.
But I'm not sure if this one belongs to the same WinBench family, as it seems to be identical
to the early PC Labs Benchmarks Series.

Edit: Link gone. Attached backp copy for the sake of preservation.

Attachments

  • Filename
    PC Magazine Labs Permance Tests.zip
    File size
    696.84 KiB
    Downloads
    15 downloads
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception
  • winbench11.gif
    Filename
    winbench11.gif
    File size
    116.22 KiB
    Views
    3544 views
    File comment
    WinBench (?) v1.1
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception
Last edited by Jo22 on 2019-11-12, 05:32. Edited 1 time in total.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 8 of 36, by chinny22

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Anyone know how a TNT2 performs compared to the above?
I thought it would be total overkill for 3x, but the only thing I use is file manager so never looked into it properly.

Reply 9 of 36, by matze79

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Does anyone here Own a Weitek 9100 ? it also offers VFW Accelration to play fullscreen video even on 486 CPUs (AVI),
and it supports GUI Accelration.

https://dosreloaded.de - The German Retro DOS PC Community
https://www.retroianer.de - under constructing since ever

Co2 - for a endless Summer

Reply 10 of 36, by NJRoadfan

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Jo22 wrote:
For maximum performace, make sure the card has.. […]
Show full quote

For maximum performace, make sure the card has..

- GDI acceleration
- YUV conversation
- hardware assisted scaling/stretching
- hardware based cursor (mouse cursor)
- support for DCI (Display Control Interface)

Matrox G400 cards support all of the above with their Windows 3.1x drivers. It also has a very comprehensive control panel to go with it.

Reply 11 of 36, by ElBrunzy

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
NJRoadfan wrote:

Matrox G400 cards support all of the above with their Windows 3.1x drivers. It also has a very comprehensive control panel to go with it.

Damn Jo22, I wanted to be the first to ask "no matrox window accelerated card in this thread?" I'm not sure about the g400, I would think about the mga millenium, but then again, I just say that to show off.

Reply 12 of 36, by psychz

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
chinny22 wrote:

Anyone know how a TNT2 performs compared to the above?

probably very poorly due to totally unstable win3x drivers afaik

NJRoadfan wrote:

Matrox G400 cards support all of the above with their Windows 3.1x drivers.

weren't they AGP only?

Stojke wrote:

Its not like components found in trash after 20 years in rain dont still work flawlessly.

:: chemical reaction :: athens in love || reality is absent || spectrality || meteoron || the lie you believe

Reply 13 of 36, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Hello again, in case someone cares, I've found something loosely related to this topic. 😀
It's not about Win 3.1 though, but GDI in general. Quite awesome technical information they explain.

Maybe it's is also interesting for some of you ?
For your convenience, I've linked to the article in English, French and German.

2D, Acceleration, And Windows: Aren't All Graphics Cards Equal?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/2d-windows-gdi,2539.html
http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/2d-windows,2-667.html
http://www.tomshardware.de/WDM-GDI-WDDM-ATI-R … hte-240480.html

Part 2 says "Early support for hardware acceleration of so-called “2D primitives” in graphics cards is gone,
and has been missing from consumer-grade products for some time now. Today, acceleration of two-dimensional graphics
functions comes as an analog to three-dimensional acceleration, but is handled solely and completely by graphics
driver software rather than on-board hardware.
"

They even made a tiny benchmark for this (Tom2D). I know, it's not usable within Win 3.1 itself,
but at least we can test Win 3.1 compatible hardware with it, when running WinNT or 9x.
This is cool, because people have already done some comparisons with a lot of modern hardware.

I've attached it, since the the link is currently down.

ElBrunzy wrote:
NJRoadfan wrote:

Matrox G400 cards support all of the above with their Windows 3.1x drivers. It also has a very comprehensive control panel to go with it.

Damn Jo22, I wanted to be the first to ask "no matrox window accelerated card in this thread?" I'm not sure about the g400, I would think about the mga millenium, but then again, I just say that to show off.

Yay, I had a matrox card in the Win98 era! (^_^) Didn't know it also had 3.1 drivers..

psychz wrote:
NJRoadfan wrote:

Matrox G400 cards support all of the above with their Windows 3.1x drivers.

weren't they AGP only?

Yup, I think so. But maybe he meant the Matrox G450, which I think also had a PCI version.

matze79 wrote:

Does anyone here Own a Weitek 9100 ? it also offers VFW Accelration to play fullscreen video even on 486 CPUs (AVI),
and it supports GUI Accelration.

Sadly I don't own one, but thank you that you mention this card. It would be awesome to see this card in action!
Weitek was an innovative company, I think. They also made cool co-processors, like the WEITEK 3167, which were essentially memory-mapped devices (EMM386 even has a switch for this).
Here are two videos showing the Weitek FPUs in action: Intel vs Weitek and RapidCad VS 3167 (RapidCad was a 486 CPU with 80386 pinout and a 80387 dummy chip)

Attachments

  • Filename
    Toms-2D-Bench.zip
    File size
    1.27 MiB
    Downloads
    43 downloads
    File comment
    Tom2D v1.04
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 14 of 36, by NJRoadfan

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Yeah, the G450 came in PCI, don't know if it had WIn 3.1x drivers though. The G200 came in PCI as well and used the same driver package as the G400 series cards.

Reply 15 of 36, by ElBrunzy

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Jo22 wrote:

Yay, I had a matrox card in the Win98 era! (^_^) Didn't know it also had 3.1 drivers..

Maybe they do, maybe they dont, I love how they maintain this list : http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/support/drivers/latest/

At the end of the list you can see win3.x support, cannot tell what exactly is supported, probably not a g400, but maybe some part of it ? do you really care about win3.11 ? ... oh wait that was the title of the thread... I did try my matrox mga millenium with those drivers and worked well, I'm pretty sure they are useless for g100 and up, sorry to have induced you in error.

Reply 17 of 36, by Errius

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Matrox has always had a bigger focus on business users than other graphics companies, and a lot of businesses were running legacy Windows 3.x software well into the new millennium.

“Your mission is to attack and destroy the Apple Computer manufacturing plant. You are allotted 35 bombs and 60 lasers."

Reply 18 of 36, by NJRoadfan

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Their driver support was fantastic overall. They were one of the few vendors to fully support OS/2 since 2.x across their product line. I also seem to recall ye old XFree86 having extremely good support for Matrox cards (supported almost all the acceleration features).

Reply 19 of 36, by Errius

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

This reminds me, do Windows NT drivers exist for the G550? I remember searching for them a few years ago but couldn't find any.

“Your mission is to attack and destroy the Apple Computer manufacturing plant. You are allotted 35 bombs and 60 lasers."