VOGONS


First post, by pcrob

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I've got an odd issue with an AGP Manli Riva TNT2 Pro card I own. Wondering if anyone else has encountered this and might have some advice.

On the initial boot screen, the characters (letters and other ASCII characters) appear garbled. They look like they are being replaced by other random characters from the character set. If I apply slight sideways pressure on the card the display will correct itself and everything appears as it should. Let go, and we're back to garbled characters.

I've inspected and cleaned the card thoroughly, but this has made no difference. I've also tried to clean the AGP slot on the motherboard as well as I can. I've several other cards that work perfectly on this board (including another TNT2 Pro and a Voodoo 3).

Reply 2 of 9, by Doornkaat

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Very likely a cracked BGA solder joint underneath the TNT2 chip. Try pressing the chip against the PCB when starting the PC.
If this makes the random characters go away it's pretty certain a solder joint connecting the graphics processor and RAM has cracked.
To permanently fix it you'd have to reflow the solder joint.
Note that this is different from chip-substrate bonds loosening like on the GeForce 8000 series cards or original Xbox 360. Those bonds can not be permanently fixed by reflowing the chip.

Reply 3 of 9, by pcrob

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Thanks for the advice! I reckon you might be onto something regarding the BGA joint. I'll test that tonight.

If it turns out that's the culprit, do you reckon I could just blast it with some hot air? I don't have a hot air reflow station, but I've wanted one for ages so I might invest in one finally.

Reply 4 of 9, by maxtherabbit

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pcrob wrote:

Thanks for the advice! I reckon you might be onto something regarding the BGA joint. I'll test that tonight.

If it turns out that's the culprit, do you reckon I could just blast it with some hot air? I don't have a hot air reflow station, but I've wanted one for ages so I might invest in one finally.

might work, but generally speaking when BGA joints fail the only enduring solution is to remove the chip completely and re-ball it

Reply 5 of 9, by Doornkaat

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maxtherabbit wrote:
pcrob wrote:

Thanks for the advice! I reckon you might be onto something regarding the BGA joint. I'll test that tonight.

If it turns out that's the culprit, do you reckon I could just blast it with some hot air? I don't have a hot air reflow station, but I've wanted one for ages so I might invest in one finally.

might work, but generally speaking when BGA joints fail the only enduring solution is to remove the chip completely and re-ball it

I agree, that's the textbook way of doing it.
Still with a good amount of flux and some experience chances are you'll get the joint resoldered just as good as new solder balls would. Especially on such an old chip with rather large contacts.
If you're paying money for it you shouldn't accept a simple reflow but if you're doing it yourself or having somebody do it for you as a favour I'd say it's fine if it works.

Reflowing a large BGA chip isn't very easy though - I still have two cards I'd like to reflow but I haven't found the nerve yet. I watched somebody else do it a couple of times but I'm still worried to get something wrong and break the card even though I'm pretty confident with regular SMD soldering by now.
You'll have to pre heat the board to around 120-140°C, apply flux around the chip you're reflowing so it gets pulled under the chip and then evenly heat the chip from above and the board from below until all the solder balls liquify/soak for a couple of seconds. Then you'll have to remove the heat source from the chip and let the whole card cool down slowly. Let it sit undisturbed until it has cooled down. During the whole process you have to pay attention not to move the chip. That's why professional equipment doesn't use hot air but infrared light to heat the chip. You also have to have a heat source that will heat up the chip fast enough so it isn't slowly cooked but can be controlled well enough so it doesn't overheat the chip. Normally you'd use soldering temperatures between 220-350°C on the chip and 200-280°C on the PCB. After pre heating the PCB the whole soldering process shouldn't take more than a minute (including the couple of seconds of soak) before letting the whole board cool down slowly.

If you don't care too much about the card you can also try to just use a hot air station or even a temperature controlled heat gun to heat the chip until the solder balls melt. Sometimes that works just fine but it also increases the risk of frying the chip or getting new cracks due to tension from having too much of a temperature difference between chip and PCB.

Personally I'm planning on practicing on some cheap cards first before I move on to the cards I actually want to repair. 😁 😉

Reply 6 of 9, by maxtherabbit

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Its that god awful lead free solder that makes the ball joints fail. I would not waste time reflowing it. Yeah it will work for a while but its a ticking clock till it shits out again

Reply 7 of 9, by Doornkaat

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maxtherabbit wrote:

Its that god awful lead free solder that makes the ball joints fail. I would not waste time reflowing it. Yeah it will work for a while but its a ticking clock till it shits out again

In my experience single joints fail because they hadn't been good in the first place (amongst other factors lead-free solder combined with an inadequate soldering process may be to blame here) in addition to being heavily mechanically or thermally stressed (inadequate storage, uncareful heatsink removal or bending the card and overheating from bad case ventilation/broken fans).

Also as a hobbyist where do you find a stencil for NV5 chips and is it viable to source one to rework a single card? If you make your own can you tell me how you do it?
Does a regular TNT2 Pro have lead free solder anyway? Being a 90s card it wouldn't have to be RoHS-1 compliant so I'd always assumed they still used leaded solder. Can you tell me more on this? 😀

Reply 8 of 9, by maxtherabbit

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Doornkaat wrote:
In my experience single joints fail because they hadn't been good in the first place (amongst other factors lead-free solder com […]
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maxtherabbit wrote:

Its that god awful lead free solder that makes the ball joints fail. I would not waste time reflowing it. Yeah it will work for a while but its a ticking clock till it shits out again

In my experience single joints fail because they hadn't been good in the first place (amongst other factors lead-free solder combined with an inadequate soldering process may be to blame here) in addition to being heavily mechanically or thermally stressed (inadequate storage, uncareful heatsink removal or bending the card and overheating from bad case ventilation/broken fans).

Also as a hobbyist where do you find a stencil for NV5 chips and is it viable to source one to rework a single card? If you make your own can you tell me how you do it?
Does a regular TNT2 Pro have lead free solder anyway? Being a 90s card it wouldn't have to be RoHS-1 compliant so I'd always assumed they still used leaded solder. Can you tell me more on this? 😀

well shit I guess you're right, the TNT2 did come before RoHS

ok I stand corrected, it might actually be forth trying to reflow it

(I know there are people who have made DIY BGA stencils, but I have never done it)

Reply 9 of 9, by Doornkaat

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maxtherabbit wrote:

(I know there are people who have made DIY BGA stencils, but I have never done it)

Too bad, I was hoping you could give me some instructions.
I really have to look into this! But first I should become able to confidently solder large BGA chips. 🤣