I have my modern Linux PC and my Dell 486 hooked up to a KVM switch. I want a monitor that will work acceptably with both.
I need a 4:3 monitor that will give me the best of both worlds for either modern computers or retro ones hooked up to it, or as close as can be had to the best.
Right now I am using a Dell 5:4 monitor, which does the job in a pinch, but the colors are terrible and I really would like a 4:3 ratio.
I was previously using a Dell 16:9 monitor, which had acceptable colors, but, of course, stretches out a 4:3 image to fill the entire screen. I have never seen a 16:9 or 16:10 LCD monitor that gives you control over the aspect ratio, like you get with a TV.
It would be nice if it were rather large. 17 inch and up. I have a lot of horizontal and vertical space where it will be located.
I am aware that there are also potential issues with refresh rates. I don't expect to be feeding this monitor anything other than typical VGA outputs from DOS/Win9x era machines.
^^ I need to add a few more to that list, and make it into a proper database somewhere. Eventually...
I'm still really happy with my Samsung 214T. It's the main head on the KVM in my 'work area' and I have about 8 machines routed into it. 1600x1200, VGA+DVI+Composite+S-video switchable by a single button press on the front, "IPS" panel (actually Samsung's specific IPS-equivalent, I forget what it's called), 21" viewing area, small bezel, and great compatibility. I haven't done the full suite of hackmode tests on it yet, as it's on my KVM which tweaks the incoming video signal a bit, but for general DOS+Win98+Win7+Linux use it's fantastic. The only thing I wish it had is inputs for HD component.
Aside from that, I end up using my Dell P190s & 2007FP a lot. The 2007FP is a beautiful display but has some definite deficiencies under DOS. My old 2001FP was much better for DOS use, but it's noticably a few generations behind the Samsung or the 2007FP (in terms of response time, etc.) They're also at least 15 years old now and are getting pretty long in tooth. If you find one NOS or with really low hours on it, it'd still be a decent choice though.
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The 2007FP is a beautiful display but has some definite deficiencies under DOS.
I use a 2007FP as my daily driver for Windows 98 games and some DOS games and I have not yet encountered a game that it wouldn't work with.
It's always flickered in random intervals, though. To the point where it's starting to annoy me. I hope replacing all the power supply caps will fix it.
The 2007FP is a beautiful display but has some definite deficiencies under DOS.
I use a 2007FP as my daily driver for Windows 98 games and some DOS games and I have not yet encountered a game that it wouldn't work with.
I did a full test of it in the compatibility thread. I found it's really trigger happy to auto-adjust, which causes issues, and it doesn't have very good support for non-standard tweakmodes. If you're mostly using Win98 and all your DOS games are "standard" Mode 13h or Mode X 320x240, it's probably fine. However, in my experience it just flat out won't display a lot of demoscene stuff & games that use complicated video tricks.
It's worth mentioning that Dell revises their models a lot, and have been known to change DSP/scaler code & even hardware across revisions. Mine is Rev.A03.
twitch.tv/oldskooljay - playing the obscure, forgotten & weird - most Tuesdays & Thursdays @ 6:30 PM PDT. Bonus streams elsewhen!
I'm still really happy with my Samsung 214T. It's the main head on the KVM in my 'work area' and I have about 8 machines routed into it. 1600x1200, VGA+DVI+Composite+S-video switchable by a single button press on the front, "IPS" panel (actually Samsung's specific IPS-equivalent, I forget what it's called)
The 214T is S-PVA as far as I know, not IPS, but yeah.
xjas wrote:
If you're mostly using Win98 and all your DOS games are "standard" Mode 13h or Mode X 320x240, it's probably fine. However, in my experience it just flat out won't display a lot of demoscene stuff & games that use complicated video tricks.
The demoscene is a very specific niche; the question is, how many games actually use these non-standard modes.
I have my modern Linux PC and my Dell 486 hooked up to a KVM switch. I want a monitor that will work acceptably with both.
Just mentioning a surprise heads-up. When testing things in 2015 I found my Viewsonic VP930 would not do DVI with Linux. Not on three different machines, and not on various earlier LiveISO when I started experimenting. VGA was fine. DVI was fine in XP. That was strange, and I ended up leaving it as something to investigate later.
You're probably using a VGA KVM, but could be worth knowing.
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I found a Dell SP2008WFP at a thrift store yesterday. It seems to be doing pretty much what I need it to:
1680x1050 resolution
Accepts typical DOS game video outputs
Setting to change aspect ratio! Although it is not automatic.
Non-fuzzy scaling (not intensely sharp but works)
Good color reproduction
The only issue that I can see so far is on games in DOS, the scaling seems to cause a little bit of tearing and a slight bit of jumpiness. I'm still not sure if it's just my imagination or not.
I'm using dual 2001FP (2x1600x1200). I've heard it's not an ideal monitor for DOS resolutions. I haven't tried real DOS yet on this machine, but all the DOSBox games work well in various resolutions, as well as older 4:3 games for Windows.
For newer wide-screen optimized games, I've added 1600x900 and 1200x1000 custom resolutions in Radeon settings.
Two-monitor system is great for web browsing, but most games get confused so I switch to one monitor mode before running any game.
The HP LP2065 and Dell 2007FP (1600x1200 4:3) have the same panels in them (most are IPS, some are PVA, and they're all good IMO). Something I like about the HP version is that it has a sharpness setting (only usable with VGA input). This will soften the pixel edges by an adjustable amount. But what I like about Dell's 2007FP is the SVideo+Composite video inputs, the black bezel, and the physical latching power switch.
The trouble with these monitors, and all IPS/VA panels of the 4:3 era, is that they only support 60Hz. DOS games typically run at 72Hz. The monitor accepts that input but it converts to 60Hz before sending it to the panel. If you play smooth scrolling games in DOS then they will look very stuttery. I find it annoying with some games. The only solution (except a CRT) is a TN panel, but their image quality isn't as good.
These monitors don't support HDCP. If you just use computers with it then that doesn't matter, but if you ever hook up a Roku or whatever then it can be an issue.
I have a 16:9 Samsung 943SWX which has an aspect ratio toggle in the menu. It's a 1360x768 TN panel and will display a 4:3 image as 1024x768 if toggled to do so. From memory, I think it also has a 1:1 setting (320x200 will display as 640x400, resulting in a pretty small picture).
It's a dinky little monitor but it worked well for DOS when I tried it. Scrolling was smooth in a 72Hz DOS game. I'm guessing that other Samsung widescreens might have the same aspect ratio option.
I think a monitor for DOS and modern stuff is a difficult combination - something will have to be compromised. Inferior panel (TN), or else a better panel that stutters in DOS.
keenmaster486 wrote:
The only issue that I can see so far is on games in DOS, the scaling seems to cause a little bit of tearing and a slight bit of jumpiness. I'm still not sure if it's just my imagination or not.
Sounds like it could be a 72Hz->60Hz conversion issue. However, from a little searching online I think that monitor is supposed to use a TN panel, which shouldn't have that problem. But the info on the panel type might have been wrong.
Is your DOS PC connected using VGA? I think DVI also causes a 60Hz issue.
xjas wrote:
The 2007FP is a beautiful display but has some definite deficiencies under DOS. My old 2001FP was much better for DOS use
What is better about the 2001FP? Compatibility with hacked video modes, or something else?
I have one of those monitors but still haven't come up with a PSU that can plug into the damn thing. The barrel connector is apparently the only one of it's kind in the world. I'm inclined to just solder some bare wires into it so I can finally find out if it works.
The 2001fp has a very bulky bezel, so I've been inclined to throw it out and just keep the panel if I can determine that it's good. But your post makes me wonder if I should save the whole thing.
Are there modern LCD monitors with support for interlaced modes?
You know, for those early SVGA cards with 1024x768 interlaced-only...
Nie tylko, jak widzicie, w tym trudność, że nie zdołacie wejść na moją górę, lecz i w tym, że ja do was cały zejść nie mogę, gdyż schodząc, gubię po drodze to, co miałem donieść.
Honestly, I don’t remember ever seeing a VGA monitor without the 4:3 option in the menu.
My Lenovo T2054p has a 16:10 panel (1440x900), it supports up to 75Hz at every resolution and of course the aspect ratio can be toggled between “original” and 4:3. DOS games look very good when played on this monitor. It’s also a very recent model with LED backlight.
I bought it on eBay for less than 25 euro and when I checked the serial number it turned out it was still under warranty until mid-2020 😀
I've been looking to do just the opposite, separate my retro rigs from my workstation and give them a really nice large Trinitron, and upgrade my workstation LCD to something amazing.
shamino wrote:What is better about the 2001FP? Compatibility with hacked video modes, or something else?
I have one of those monitors but sti […] Show full quote
xjas wrote:
The 2007FP is a beautiful display but has some definite deficiencies under DOS. My old 2001FP was much better for DOS use
What is better about the 2001FP? Compatibility with hacked video modes, or something else?
I have one of those monitors but still haven't come up with a PSU that can plug into the damn thing. The barrel connector is apparently the only one of it's kind in the world. I'm inclined to just solder some bare wires into it so I can finally find out if it works.
The 2001fp has a very bulky bezel, so I've been inclined to throw it out and just keep the panel if I can determine that it's good. But your post makes me wonder if I should save the whole thing.
The 2001FP handles hack/tweakmodes a lot better, but there's also some quality-of-life stuff that makes using it under DOS a much nicer experience. Mode changes are a lot faster for one thing. I can think of a few games that launch in text mode, show a title screen in high-res, then jump back to low res for a menu. The 2007FP isn't fast enough to cope with this and you end up missing the title screen, or it just briefly flashes on before it's yanked away again. It's been a while since I had it, but IIRC the 2001FP didn't force auto-adjust, whereas the 2007FP does after every mode change, which again means if something's only on screen for a couple seconds you miss it. Maybe it's possible to turn that off buried somewhere in the settings, but I didn't find it.
When the 2001FP can't display a mode, it fails more gracefully and recovers quicker. If the software sets a mode that the monitor can't handle and then switches back to one that it can, the 2007FP sometimes just throws up the out of range error until you manually intervene, whereas the 2001FP would sync back up on its own pretty quickly. The 2007FP also hops inputs when it fails - if you're running something under DOS on VGA and have a Windows box running on the DVI, if the VGA mode goes out of range the 2007FP will automatically switch to the DVI input instead of waiting until it can display the VGA signal again. That can be infuriating. The 2001FP wouldn't switch inputs unless you pressed the button to.
Some revisions of the 2001FP can display 15kHz & 21kHz hsync content over the VGA port which means you should be able to use them with CGA or EGA cards with a simple cable adapter (and they're popular with Amiga users for that too.)
Don't get me wrong, the 2007FP is a beautiful display and I use mine lots, but it's much more suited to a GUI environment like Windows 98 where you boot in one graphics mode and leave it there. I did get rid of my 2001FP after all, partly because of that big external power brick which made it a bit of a cabling mess, but also because it was just an old, heavy, cranky panel and the image quality wasn't all that great by modern standards.
^^ the 2007FP can't handle this effect at all, throws a hissy fit, and won't display anything afterwards until you start manually pressing buttons. My Dell E177FP goes out of range here too, but it syncs back up without you having to do anything. My old 2001FP here ran it like a champ (& so does my Samsung 214T for that matter.)
twitch.tv/oldskooljay - playing the obscure, forgotten & weird - most Tuesdays & Thursdays @ 6:30 PM PDT. Bonus streams elsewhen!
The trouble with these monitors, and all IPS/VA panels of the 4:3 era, is that they only support 60Hz.
Yep, 1600x1200 IPS/PVA monitors are only good for Dosbox. Or strictly for VESA modes, which are usually 60hz by default.
There's more luck with 20 to 22inch 16:10 IPS panels. For example Dell 2209WA is 75hz capable and has forced 4:3 aspect ratio option, although scaling is slightly worse (less pixels available).
I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.
For example Dell 2209WA is 75hz capable and has forced 4:3 aspect ratio option, although scaling is slightly worse (less pixels available).
Yep, the 2209WA with the features you mentioned is surprisingly capable for retro-gaming. It can also do component-over-VGA if I recall.
It's a doubly interesting model in historical terms: it was one of the first monitors that signaled the drop in IPS panel prices. I remember the 2007FP/2007WFP that a couple of years earlier cost more than double the price of a TN in the same size category, and for a while there has been a big drought in consumer IPS monitors completely. Then out came the 2209WA with price tag just a notch above that of a similar-sized TN, and then IPS panels started trickling down into the mainstream consumer section.
Interesting info, thanks. After looking at your photo, and looking at some pictures online, I don't have a 2001FP. I don't have it accessible at the moment but according to some old notes it's apparently a 2000FP. It's one of those early LCD designs where the bezel is almost as big as the screen. 😀
Anyway, I guess it would probably be as DOS friendly as the 2001FP model that replaced it. I need to rig up some way to bypass the barrel connector and test the thing.
I wonder if it's compatible with newer panels from 2007FP/etc. That might yield a better picture while keeping the DOS friendliness of the older monitor's electronics. For me personally the 60Hz issue would remain a big complaint though.
