VOGONS


First post, by infiniteclouds

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Kepler and Maxwell can max out XP quite easily and X58 and even X79 can run Windows XP but I feel like early Windows XP games can really give you the finger with such a late GPU and basically any CPU that isn't single core.

Reply 1 of 18, by texterted

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Put such games on a 98se build.

Cheers

Ted

98se/W2K :- Asus A8v Dlx. A-64 3500+, 512 mb ddr, Radeon 9800 Pro, SB Live.
XP Pro:- Asus P5 Q SE Plus, C2D E8400, 4 Gig DDR2, Radeon HD4870, SB Audigy 2ZS.

Reply 3 of 18, by auron

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i'm not sure what "maxing out xp" exactly refers to, but if d3d8to9 can run on xp, that might be a useful tool, as d3d9 tends to perform faster on newer cards than 8. ut2004 comes to mind here, where the d3d9 renderer was also left with some broken features, so that wrapper is needed to get the best of both worlds.

you can also force programs to only use certain cores via shortcut.

Reply 4 of 18, by infiniteclouds

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auron wrote on 2021-01-17, 07:02:

i'm not sure what "maxing out xp" exactly refers to, but if d3d8to9 can run on xp, that might be a useful tool, as d3d9 tends to perform faster on newer cards than 8. ut2004 comes to mind here, where the d3d9 renderer was also left with some broken features, so that wrapper is needed to get the best of both worlds.

you can also force programs to only use certain cores via shortcut.

Running the latest XP games that run best on Windows XP due to compatibility reasons -- particularly EAX -- at maximum settings. Any games that have no accelerated sound and just fine on Windows 7+ wouldn't qualify.

Reply 5 of 18, by auron

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the few EAX5 games are mostly OAL to my knowledge so that should work on vista+ without alchemy crap. speaking of issues, some things just never worked right even under XP; for instance the dreaded doom3 EAX visual twitch bug that supposedly can only be avoided with some early audigy2 beta drivers, and i could never ever get ut04 to properly work on an x-fi either.

there's also those xbox-centric games like republic commando and splinter cell with missing visual features on newer hardware, but these might have received fixes in recent years.

Reply 6 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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The WinXP era is tricky since it spans such a long time period. On one hand, you have edge cases like the original Splinter Cell which only works correctly on GeForce 3 & 4 cards. Then there are late-era games like Bioshock which still support EAX but need a beefy GPU/CPU in order to run smoothly.

My approach is to use a single-core CPU paired with a GPU with 512 MB of video RAM for WinXP games up to 2006. No need to worry about setting core affinity for older games and you also avoid VRAM size errors which some games exhibit when you go over 512 MB. With that setup, you still get 60+ FPS in most games at 1280x1024.

As for Splinter Cell and the few early games which can be problematic, I just play them on my AthlonXP + GeForce4 rig. Lastly, anything made after 2006 tends to work fine on modern systems, using Creative's ALchemy for EAX if needed.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 7 of 18, by The Serpent Rider

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On one hand, you have edge cases like the original Splinter Cell which only works correctly on GeForce 3 & 4 cards

That information is very outdated. No need to play it with barely playable frame rate on GeForce 4.
Splinter Cell (2002) | Fix Guide.

Get up, come on get down with the sickness
Open up your hate, and let it flow into me

Reply 8 of 18, by infiniteclouds

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-01-17, 09:07:

you also avoid VRAM size errors which some games exhibit when you go over 512 MB. With that setup, you still get 60+ FPS in most games at 1280x1024.

Which games have issues with VRAM over 512MB? I'm not familiar with this. I would also shoot for 1600x1200 @ 60+ FPS in any of the 4:3 era games.

Reply 9 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-01-17, 09:45:

That information is very outdated. No need to play it with barely playable frame rate on GeForce 4.
Splinter Cell (2002) | Fix Guide.

This is true, the frame rate can get extremely jumpy at times. Basically, it goes from 60 to 25 whenever those high resolution shadows/lighting effects kick in. That said, I recently replayed it on the aforementioned rig and I only experienced such severe jumps in a few places. Overall, the game played well enough and I had no problems completing it.

I'm not so familiar with dgVoodoo but it sounds like a great option for people with newer cards. Does it fix every lighting related bug or are there still some left over?

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 10 of 18, by Joseph_Joestar

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infiniteclouds wrote on 2021-01-17, 10:11:

Which games have issues with VRAM over 512MB? I'm not familiar with this. I would also shoot for 1600x1200 @ 60+ FPS in any of the 4:3 era games.

Red Faction has VRAM issues but fortunately there's a fix.

I think a few other games had similar problems but I can't remember which ones off hand.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / SBLive / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3000+ / Asus K8V-MX / GeForce4 / Audigy1

Reply 11 of 18, by duga3

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infiniteclouds wrote on 2021-01-17, 08:23:

Running the latest XP games that run best on Windows XP due to compatibility reasons -- particularly EAX -- at maximum settings. Any games that have no accelerated sound and just fine on Windows 7+ wouldn't qualify.

Part of my build (see sig) focuses on exactly that. And by max settings I mean as much AA I can get via NVidia Inspector (SGSSAA, etc.). It has 875k + 980 Ti. I am on a testing spree now so if you name some games I can test them. So far I have only tried less problematic or later titles and there weren't any issues apart from game specific issues which usually only needed to install official patches to fix them.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-01-17, 10:18:

Does it fix every lighting related bug or are there still some left over?

I too would be interested in this, I find it hard to believe someone actually restored the original buffered shadows without issues. There were some quite long threads about it here.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)
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10Hz FM

Reply 12 of 18, by infiniteclouds

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duga3 wrote on 2021-01-17, 12:49:
infiniteclouds wrote on 2021-01-17, 08:23:

Running the latest XP games that run best on Windows XP due to compatibility reasons -- particularly EAX -- at maximum settings. Any games that have no accelerated sound and just fine on Windows 7+ wouldn't qualify.

Part of my build (see sig) focuses on exactly that. And by max settings I mean as much AA I can get via NVidia Inspector (SGSSAA, etc.). It has 875k + 980 Ti. I am on a testing spree now so if you name some games I can test them. So far I have only tried less problematic or later titles and there weren't any issues apart from game specific issues which usually only needed to install official patches to fix them.

I too would be interested in this, I find it hard to believe someone actually restored the original buffered shadows without issues. There were some quite long threads about it here.

Let's take KOTOR 1 for example. My retail disc version, patched to the latest still has a ton of crashes on a Windows XP install with an X79 MOBO and Kepler GPU. On my new Ampere system just playing around with nvidia inspector it seems SGSAA can't be forced in the game, or any kind of supersampling as it says (D3D only) and even though it's DX9 KOTOR runs in OpenGL on the Steam version.

Games like this where even the built in higher resolution options (up to 1600x1200) have small text no UI scaling I would always prefer to keep it at the base resolution with some intense supersampling if possible.

Reply 13 of 18, by gerry

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whilst it is possible to get win xp running on later hardware, it may as well be windows 7 at that point

I like XP a lot, I like that it can run (comfortably) on a P3 500mhz with a mere 256-512mb and also a core duo with 2gb ram plus loads of graphics cards from early agp to later pci-e

but the later the tech the more I'd use W7 instead

Reply 15 of 18, by duga3

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infiniteclouds wrote on 2021-01-17, 23:26:
duga3 wrote on 2021-01-17, 12:49:
infiniteclouds wrote on 2021-01-17, 08:23:

Running the latest XP games that run best on Windows XP due to compatibility reasons -- particularly EAX -- at maximum settings. Any games that have no accelerated sound and just fine on Windows 7+ wouldn't qualify.

Part of my build (see sig) focuses on exactly that. And by max settings I mean as much AA I can get via NVidia Inspector (SGSSAA, etc.). It has 875k + 980 Ti. I am on a testing spree now so if you name some games I can test them. So far I have only tried less problematic or later titles and there weren't any issues apart from game specific issues which usually only needed to install official patches to fix them.

I too would be interested in this, I find it hard to believe someone actually restored the original buffered shadows without issues. There were some quite long threads about it here.

Let's take KOTOR 1 for example. My retail disc version, patched to the latest still has a ton of crashes on a Windows XP install with an X79 MOBO and Kepler GPU. On my new Ampere system just playing around with nvidia inspector it seems SGSAA can't be forced in the game, or any kind of supersampling as it says (D3D only) and even though it's DX9 KOTOR runs in OpenGL on the Steam version.

Games like this where even the built in higher resolution options (up to 1600x1200) have small text no UI scaling I would always prefer to keep it at the base resolution with some intense supersampling if possible.

Okay I have tested KOTOR now. Seems like it is OGL1.4 and not DX9.

It also crashed very frequently but I was able to fix that by adding:

Disable Vertex Buffer Objects=1

into swkotor.ini in the game folder. Since then it never crashed on me. Before that it crashed like every 3 minutes.

I have spent some time trying various AA solutions but there was nothing better than the built-in 8xMSAA. Some of the AA attempts can be seen in my KOTOR screenshots.

By the way, you can find community mods for resolutions higher than 1600x1200px or complete UI overhauls for HD displays, etc. But I would completely understand why you would not want to overhaul a classic game.

I think the UI at 1600x1200px is of an acceptable size (barely though) so I would not venture into lower resolutions (when "only" 8xMSAA is available). Lower resolutions would be interesting only if you would want high refresh rates on CRTs. Game seems to allow high refresh rates but for some strange reason 1 CPU thread is hovering at around 100% almost all the time, so I cannot get much more than 60FPS no matter the resolution (it's not vsynced or framecapped). I can get more FPS if I look into empty corners, the overloaded CPU thread then also lowers the usage. I have i7-875k@stock CPU which should be plenty imo.

98/XP multi-boot system with P55 chipset (build log)
Screenshots
10Hz FM

Reply 16 of 18, by mothergoose729

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Very, very minor. The only game made at or around 2000 that I know of that uses legacy features is Thief 1 for a sky texture that you barely see (palletized textures). Serious Sam can have issues with distant textures in some levels but only on some cards, and I think I have only seen it reported for AMD. Anything that uses table fog won't work but I don't know of many games that used that after about 1998 (stuff like cameggedon and one of the star wars games). Even then, a lack of table fog just means the fog is opaque instead of appropriately transparent.

Reply 17 of 18, by infiniteclouds

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duga3 wrote on 2021-01-20, 18:18:
Okay I have tested KOTOR now. Seems like it is OGL1.4 and not DX9. […]
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infiniteclouds wrote on 2021-01-17, 23:26:
duga3 wrote on 2021-01-17, 12:49:

Part of my build (see sig) focuses on exactly that. And by max settings I mean as much AA I can get via NVidia Inspector (SGSSAA, etc.). It has 875k + 980 Ti. I am on a testing spree now so if you name some games I can test them. So far I have only tried less problematic or later titles and there weren't any issues apart from game specific issues which usually only needed to install official patches to fix them.

I too would be interested in this, I find it hard to believe someone actually restored the original buffered shadows without issues. There were some quite long threads about it here.

Let's take KOTOR 1 for example. My retail disc version, patched to the latest still has a ton of crashes on a Windows XP install with an X79 MOBO and Kepler GPU. On my new Ampere system just playing around with nvidia inspector it seems SGSAA can't be forced in the game, or any kind of supersampling as it says (D3D only) and even though it's DX9 KOTOR runs in OpenGL on the Steam version.

Games like this where even the built in higher resolution options (up to 1600x1200) have small text no UI scaling I would always prefer to keep it at the base resolution with some intense supersampling if possible.

Okay I have tested KOTOR now. Seems like it is OGL1.4 and not DX9.

It also crashed very frequently but I was able to fix that by adding:

Disable Vertex Buffer Objects=1

into swkotor.ini in the game folder. Since then it never crashed on me. Before that it crashed like every 3 minutes.

I have spent some time trying various AA solutions but there was nothing better than the built-in 8xMSAA. Some of the AA attempts can be seen in my KOTOR screenshots.

By the way, you can find community mods for resolutions higher than 1600x1200px or complete UI overhauls for HD displays, etc. But I would completely understand why you would not want to overhaul a classic game.

I think the UI at 1600x1200px is of an acceptable size (barely though) so I would not venture into lower resolutions (when "only" 8xMSAA is available). Lower resolutions would be interesting only if you would want high refresh rates on CRTs. Game seems to allow high refresh rates but for some strange reason 1 CPU thread is hovering at around 100% almost all the time, so I cannot get much more than 60FPS no matter the resolution (it's not vsynced or framecapped). I can get more FPS if I look into empty corners, the overloaded CPU thread then also lowers the usage. I have i7-875k@stock CPU which should be plenty imo.

Thanks for the extensive testing. I had the same results. I do prefer to play this game on my high res CRT in 4:3 rather than modernizing it but yes, the 1600x1200 UI kind of sucks -- especially the text- and even the Pazaak screen is shrunk down into a small window with borders. I wish there was a way to play it at the base 800x600 UI but with supersampling, downsampling, upscaling, etc but that isn't an option in OGL. I'll have to see if the Vertex Buffer flag was set on my XP install since I did not have crashes on the Steam version that I was just doing some basic testing on and that's on Windows 10. That would be an acceptable fix while suggestions of disabling soft shadows or especially frame buffer effects are not -- fortunately I think that I'm good on that with an NVIDIA GPU.

Reply 18 of 18, by infiniteclouds

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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-01-20, 18:32:

Very, very minor. The only game made at or around 2000 that I know of that uses legacy features is Thief 1 for a sky texture that you barely see (palletized textures). Serious Sam can have issues with distant textures in some levels but only on some cards, and I think I have only seen it reported for AMD. Anything that uses table fog won't work but I don't know of many games that used that after about 1998 (stuff like cameggedon and one of the star wars games). Even then, a lack of table fog just means the fog is opaque instead of appropriately transparent.

I think I would classify those as Windows 98 games personally.