VOGONS


First post, by Scythifuge

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Greetings,

I had found a brand new KDS monitor, sealed in it's original box, for not cheap. I had been using it to build a couple of retro machines. I was using the Windows 98 Auto Patcher, and after the first reboot, the monitor reset itself with the degauss sound happening, and then the picture looked very strange. It looked distorted like how a screen may look while installing display drivers, when the picture gets weird in the middle of the process. After the auto patcher was completed, it became clear that something "permanent" happened to the monitor. The machine has a Voodoo 5 and is completely set up (I did try a different video card to make sure my Voodoo was fine.) I connected a spare monitor and it seems fine. I then connected the KDS to my laptop's VGA port and was seeing the same problems, though I did set different refresh rates to see if it changed. The picture was almost black and heavily distorted.

Strangely, the monitor started letting me see the picture a little better, and I can get into windows. The problem is that the display is off during the boot process; looks semi-normal if I go into safe mode, and has a heavy pincushion effect if I go into normal windows. Some of the picture adjustments seem to work, but not completely (vertical is always too long, no matter what,) and the the picture looks like the pincushion setting was set all the way in, and no matter what, the pincushion adjustment does nothing to effect the picture.

It seems like whatever controls how the picture is "drawn on the screen" went bad, and the higher the color depth and resolution, the more distorted the picture.

I NEED to save this monitor. I have been putting months into these projects. I know that even though the monitor was never used, the caps may be faulty from sitting. I am open to trying ANYTHING to get this monitor working again. It could take a long time and a lot of money to find another 19" CRT that is NOS or in very good condition.

Many thanks,
Scythifuge

Reply 1 of 42, by Caluser2000

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Get rid of the over weight monstrosity. Plenty of decent second LCD displays and LCD TV with a huge selection of video input ports that will do the job just as well. And be a damb sight lighter. It'll be more energy efficient as well.

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Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
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Reply 2 of 42, by BitWrangler

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Hmmmmm, first wild ass guess is that the PSU sections are putting out lower than spec voltages, but you could be hunting iffy caps all through it.

Here be the holy scrolls of monitor fiddling... https://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_monfaq.html

2017: Basement full of ancient PC stuff, starting to go through it. 2021: Still starting, heh, many setbacks. So what's this BitWrangler guy's deal ??? >>> Taming the pile, specs to target?

Reply 3 of 42, by Scythifuge

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-01, 22:25:

Get rid of the over weight monstrosity. Plenty of decent second LCD displays and LCD TV with a huge selection of video input ports that will do the job just as well. And be a damb sight lighter. It'll be more energy efficient as well.

I can't. I bought it specifically for a retro set up along with a retro desk and everything else. A few hundred bucks, and I have not gotten enough use out of it. I use LCD displays for everything else. Plus, I can't find an LCD that can properly display MS-DOS games and apps as they were intended.

Reply 4 of 42, by Scythifuge

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BitWrangler wrote on 2021-06-01, 22:34:

Hmmmmm, first wild ass guess is that the PSU sections are putting out lower than spec voltages, but you could be hunting iffy caps all through it.

Here be the holy scrolls of monitor fiddling... https://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_monfaq.html

Thank you for the link. Whatever happened had occurred during the auto patching. I regret that I didn't have my Voodoo drivers installed before autopatching. Back in the day, I would reinstall windows, install chipset drivers, run windows update until done, then install the rest of my drivers.

Reply 5 of 42, by Scythifuge

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Well, the proper color has come back. Before, the self check box would look fuzzy and dim. Now the colors are normal and bright, and the fuzziness has abated. However, it seems that perhaps every other geometry adjustment option has zero effect. I can stretch or shrink the screen vertically, but not horizontally. The pincushion option has no effect, but whatever option next to it does work. So perhaps it will "fix itself" as it has improved on it's own. Or, perhaps there is a part that I can replace that will allow the auto adjust and the non-working geometry options to work again. I'm definitely not getting rid of it just yet. This spare 17 inch dim monitor is also a KDS. Different sizes, but maybe some of the parts are the same. Here is to hoping that I don't die, 🤣!

Reply 7 of 42, by Scythifuge

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Byrd wrote on 2021-06-02, 01:39:

Pics?

It sounds like the degauss function is problematic - can you access a service mode?

I'll try to get pics tomorrow. I put it on my kitchen table and connected a 4:3 LCD (which I noticed now has some spots on the screen - I must be cursed) so that I could continue installing my games and apps on my SD cards. I am going to hook it back up to see if is magically fixers itself, and I may open it up. If I can find interior adjustments, I'll try that. My kids will be in school, so I will feel safer about having potentially lethal electronics exposed.

I can't find any information on a possible service mode. Until I can get pics; imagine pushing the sides of the picture in - that is what it looks like, like a digital hourglass. Whatever causes the monitor to auto adjust when it receives a signal isn't working; whatever is causing the picture to distort is overriding the auto adjust and half of the OSD picture settings. What is really annoying is that I can't find anything on the Information Superhighway where someone else experienced the same issue on any CRT monitor.

Reply 8 of 42, by cyclone3d

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I would take the cover off and unplug and replug all the connections you can. Could be that oxidation is just causing bad connections.

Could also be bad solder connections or bad caps.

I did have an old monitor once that had a transistor/voltage regulator go out. Don't remember what exactly it was doing. I took it to a local repair place and the owner diagnosed and fixed it within 15 minutes.

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Reply 9 of 42, by Joseph_Joestar

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-02, 03:01:

I would take the cover off and unplug and replug all the connections you can. Could be that oxidation is just causing bad connections.

I wouldn't recommend opening up a CRT monitor to anyone who hasn't been properly trained in repairing it. Those things hold a lot of charge even when unplugged, and touching the wrong spot can cause serious injuries or worse.

OP, try to find a local TV repair shop that still works with CRT TVs. They might be able to fix your monitor as well.

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Reply 10 of 42, by cyclone3d

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-06-02, 05:31:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-02, 03:01:

I would take the cover off and unplug and replug all the connections you can. Could be that oxidation is just causing bad connections.

I wouldn't recommend opening up a CRT monitor to anyone who hasn't been properly trained in repairing it. Those things hold a lot of charge even when unplugged, and touching the wrong spot can cause serious injuries or worse.

OP, try to find a local TV repair shop that still works with CRT TVs. They might be able to fix your monitor as well.

Yeah, that is probably a better idea.

Back in the day, I would unplug the power and then turn the power button on to drain the caps. I probably took apart 15-20 CRT TVs and monitors before I was 20 years old, maybe more.

If you ever work on a CRT TV and the flyback has melted through the insulation and is sending a huge electrical arc to the frame of the TV, it will put a good fear of electricity in you.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header
Epstein didn't kill himself

Reply 11 of 42, by Scythifuge

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-02, 08:11:
Yeah, that is probably a better idea. […]
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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-06-02, 05:31:
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-02, 03:01:

I would take the cover off and unplug and replug all the connections you can. Could be that oxidation is just causing bad connections.

I wouldn't recommend opening up a CRT monitor to anyone who hasn't been properly trained in repairing it. Those things hold a lot of charge even when unplugged, and touching the wrong spot can cause serious injuries or worse.

OP, try to find a local TV repair shop that still works with CRT TVs. They might be able to fix your monitor as well.

Yeah, that is probably a better idea.

Back in the day, I would unplug the power and then turn the power button on to drain the caps. I probably took apart 15-20 CRT TVs and monitors before I was 20 years old, maybe more.

If you ever work on a CRT TV and the flyback has melted through the insulation and is sending a huge electrical arc to the frame of the TV, it will put a good fear of electricity in you.

I'm going to use a piece of electrical cable wrapped around a flat head screw driver on one end, with an alligator clip on the other, and discharge the power. I also heard that CRTs at the end had a part that caused most of the power to discharge upon power down. The closest person that is willing to look at these monitors is 1.3hrs away and that is if he didn't close up shop (it has been at least 6 months since I called him,) though I am going to give him a call and see what he says. I am also going to open up a KDS 17 inch that I have to see if they share parts, and I am checking facebook marketplace, craigslist, ebay, and mercari for either the same 19" KDS model, or an alternative that I can use for now. I am also going to look for a couple of LCD monitors that support 4:3 A.R. and run at 70Hz+ for lower resolutions. I was planning on running 320x200 - 1024x768, never going higher.

I can't give up on this monitor. It is working enough that it seems like it just needs a replacement cap or some other part. I will be watching as many youtube videos as I can which cover working inside a CRT PC monitor. I wish that a company would make a model of monitor with better support for retro games, apps, and OS. With over 7 billion people on earth and with the number of articles, posts, and videos about people wanting such support, someone could make a monitor with legacy support and sell at least a million units. Plus, there are still arcades out there that are switching to substandard LCD screens when their CRT dies. I keep reading that OLED is an option, though my TCL series 6 lacks 4:3 support, and I am sure that most modern displays are nixing that option, so hunting down CRTs and certain, no-longer-produced LCD screens are becoming our only options. Someday, we will all be forced to use DosBox / PCem / 86box and play games in a window while our retro parts collect dust...

Reply 12 of 42, by konc

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-06-02, 11:20:

I can't give up on this monitor.

Since you are so determined to get it restored and working, your best bet is to find a professional to do the job right.
Yeah I know it's not that easy anymore, but if you don't have the skills to do it yourself what else remains?

Reply 14 of 42, by Scythifuge

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konc wrote on 2021-06-02, 11:35:
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-06-02, 11:20:

I can't give up on this monitor.

Since you are so determined to get it restored and working, your best bet is to find a professional to do the job right.
Yeah I know it's not that easy anymore, but if you don't have the skills to do it yourself what else remains?

Miphee wrote on 2021-06-02, 11:37:

Recap the horizontal circuitry but I'd just recap the entire thing. It's easy.

I am hoping that it is just the caps. It would seem that that the circuitry for multiple geometry options may be damaged. I just got off of the phone with a guy who is willing to take a look at it, and he was up front that it is a shot in the dark because no one can find service manuals for these damned KDS monitors, and KDS isn't around anymore, probably because their monitors die.

I'm going to pop it open and look for loose connections an d bulging caps or for anything else that appears obvious. I am then going to make arrangements to meet the repair dude in the city, and I'll bring along this dim 17" KDS I have and a dim (double damn it all) 19" Gateway that I have, and see what he can do. I should buy a CRT tester because I read that you can use it to burn off some crap that makes your monitor dim. Either way, I paid enough for this nice and new (and new smelling, dammit) looking giant paperweight that I am willing to tinker with it and have someone try to recap it before I recycle it or stick it in a dark basement corner (in case I come across another of the same model and want parts.)

EDIT: I haven't set it up for pics yet, but this link describes what my screen looks like at high resolutions (shows a pic, too,) and what he did to repair it. I am really starting to think that it is a capacitor issue. Maybe there are caps for different resolutions that require more power, as safe mode is still relatively square and the hour glass shape gets worse, the higher I set it. Maybe the OSD options correspond to the caps, and that is why some options work, and some do not. I hope that there are clear markings on these probably-made-in-China caps:

https://jestineyong.com/pincushion-problem-in … rt-tv-repaired/

Reply 15 of 42, by Scythifuge

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I left a message with another place that repairs things on an industrial level, including CRTs. However, that is twice the driving distance. However, if it can be repaired, it will be worth it. The more I read, the more it sounds like bulging or blown caps. If there is no damage to the board or other components, and if the caps are clearly marked, I have faith that I can get it repaired. If neither of the two places can help me, then I don't have anything to lose and I will start learning how to solder/desolder things. I have a knack for figuring things out once I dive in, and I have been wanting to learn anyway.

While I try to deal with this monitor and find a couple of 17" and 19" spares (my girlfriend is insisting on buying me one because she is very supportive of my hobbies and passions,) I am looking for recommendations for the newest LCD monitor that supports 4:3 AR, 70Hz+ when running 1024x768 and below, and that is also no bigger than 20 inches wide (or else it won't fit in the monitor cavity on my PC desk.) I may make a separate thread for that.

Reply 16 of 42, by Miphee

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-06-02, 18:46:

If neither of the two places can help me, then I don't have anything to lose and I will start learning how to solder/desolder things. I have a knack for figuring things out once I dive in, and I have been wanting to learn anyway.

If you decide to try it you'll find that it's much easier to work with than other PC components with multi layer PCB.
Replacing caps in a monitor is almost fun especially if it fixes the problem. No schematics needed because there aren't that many elcos in a monitor so replacing them won't be expensive at all. Don't look for bulging elcos because you probably won't find any. Just buy the ones you need and replace them one by one.

Reply 17 of 42, by Scythifuge

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Miphee wrote on 2021-06-02, 19:14:
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-06-02, 18:46:

If neither of the two places can help me, then I don't have anything to lose and I will start learning how to solder/desolder things. I have a knack for figuring things out once I dive in, and I have been wanting to learn anyway.

If you decide to try it you'll find that it's much easier to work with than other PC components with multi layer PCB.
Replacing caps in a monitor is almost fun especially if it fixes the problem. No schematics needed because there aren't that many elcos in a monitor so replacing them won't be expensive at all. Don't look for bulging elcos because you probably won't find any. Just buy the ones you need and replace them one by one.

Thank you, I'll probably take this route. I just got off the phone with the technician from the industrial repair place. He said their policy is not to patch hardware. He said he will give a free evaluation and quote, but that I should expect to pay $600-800 for him to completely rebuild the entire thing so that I wouldn't have to worry about bringing it back. I love the idea of having a 19" CRT for the next 20-30 years, but that is very expensive. However, how many LCDs will I have to buy over the years?

I hope that the caps are clearly marked so I know which ones to buy. I do hope that it is an "easy" fix and that I can manage it.

Reply 19 of 42, by Caluser2000

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I use a NEC/Packard Bell 17" FT700 LCD Monitor shared between a AcerAcross 486DX2/50 and my Zenirh 286LP Plus. Has worked on Win3.1, wfw 3.11, OS/2 v3 Warp and of course MS and DrDos.

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There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉