Probably NEC 20WGX2.

See my reply in your other monitor thread.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-06-02, 20:22:

Probably NEC 20WGX2.

Thank you, I'll look into it!

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-06-02, 20:29:

See my reply in your other monitor thread.

Thank you! Read and replied! I appreciate everyone's help and suggestions.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-06-02, 20:22:

Probably NEC 20WGX2.

16:10 aspect radio. Not bad, I think. I used such a monitor type years ago with DOSBox.
It was a good compromise (balance), I think. Worked well in Windows and I could view 16:9 videos still.
On the other hand, the black bars in 4:3 or 5:4 resolutions were small and didn't bother me.
Even if stretched, the picture was tolerable.

By the way my father used to have a 20" 4:3 (or 5:4?) CRT monitor in the early 90s for his 386.
He was a programmer, not a gamer, though. I loved to play DOS /Win3 games on it, nevertheless.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-06-02, 19:01:

Greetings, […]
Show full quote

Greetings,

My NOS KDS XF-9i is displaying pincushion distortion and horizontal OSD controls aren't affecting the screen, though the picture is relatively square at low resolutions (allowing use of safe mode.) While trying to find a technician or perhaps attempt to recap the thing myself, I need to find some alternative displays.

I know that LCDs are generally complete and utter trash for retro gaming. However, I also know that some models are better than others. Can anyone recommend an LCD monitor that is no wider than 20 inches (space constraints) and supports 4:3 AR and 70Hz+ for resolutions 1024x768 and below? Many current models lack 4:3 support. I would like the option to force it, if possible. I am hoping to find the best possible MS-DOS display that I can in LCD format. I will still try to repair this CRT and grab some spares, though I think it would be prudent to get some LCD monitors if they work well for DOS games, including fast paced games like Quake.

Many thanks!
Scythifuge

The best 4:3 LCD monitor I found for DOS games is a 20" DELL 2007FP. I use a cheap scanline generator with it for some retro goodness.

DELL 2007FP

70-75 Hz - frameskipping.

enaiel wrote on 2021-06-03, 17:30:

The best 4:3 LCD monitor I found for DOS games is a 20" DELL 2007FP. I use a cheap scanline generator with it for some retro goodness.

The Dell 1907FPc (8ms) and 1908FPc (5ms) monitors are nice as well.

I also have an IBM 9320-HB1 which supports even higher refresh rates (up to 85Hz) and a few more resolutions but the response time is stated at 16ms.

Then there is the Lenovo 9419-HC2 which should be pretty good as well.

This thread, among others, discusses monitor suitability for DOS use . I use a Philips 252B9 with an OSSC connected to a Voodoo 3's VGA port for most DOS stuff. I also use a Geforce FX5900 for VESA supporting late DOS games when the Voodoo 3's becomes a bottleneck .

This setup is, IMHO, about as good at it gets when using modern display hardware for DOS games . Reasons (referring to the monitor, Voodoo 3 and OSSC combo):

a) The Philips has a true 4:3 modes, so for all intents and purposes, it is like using a natively 1600x1200 monitor, except for the black bars (pillars) on each side of the active image area when 4:3 mode is active
b) This monitor accepts 70Hz input over HDMI and does not frameskip, so 70Hz input is actually displayed at 70Hz . DOS mode 13h, which most DOS VGA games use, is 320x200@70Hz (line doubled by VGA card to 640x400@70Hz) so this is a significant point if one is sensitive to frameskip
c) Using an OSSC allows a very sharp image thanks to integer scaling (line-doubling) at least part of the way to monitor native resolution
d) Using an OSSC bypasses the issue of practically all LCD monitors interpreting DOS mode 13h as 720x400@70Hz over VGA, by allowing the user to manually chose the proper sampling preset

That being said, for DOS VGA games (non Glide), any decent VGA card can be used with similar results . Additionally, there are other monitor options to choose from that should work just as well as long 70Hz input is supported on input and output and that an explicit 4:3 mode (a so called aspect mode typically won't do) is present . AFAICR, CDE has an AOC monitor that fits those criteria and, at last notice, he is happy with it when using it with an OSSC.

darry wrote on 2021-06-03, 18:31:

d) Using an OSSC bypasses the issue of practically all LCD monitors interpreting DOS mode 13h as 720x400@70Hz over VGA, by allowing the user to manually chose the proper sampling preset

That reminds me of something!
Some later PCs and notebooks use 640x480 for text-mode.
It's not an issue, but it may cause confusion when testing monitors..

I almost forgot. For those resolutions and refresh rates that LCD monitors don't support, you can use a TVONE PC/HD Cross Converter model 1T-C2-400-US.

The input and output is the regular 15-pin vga connector.

You can program it to do whatever you want. It connects to the computer via RS-232 and has a GUI app that you download from their website.

That's cool, thanks a lot for the tip! 😎

My go to monitor has been the Samsung 204b (looks similar in appearance to the Dell 1908FP) which is a 20inch with 1600x1200 resolution. 5ms and displays everything I through at it.

EDIT: A Google search says it's Samsung's panel inside the Dell.

Jo22 wrote on 2021-06-03, 19:06:

That's cool, thanks a lot for the tip! 😎

Yeah, it is a really sweet device. you can have it letter-box the input resolution on the output so you can get the correct aspect-ratio no matter the monitor you are using. Pretty sure you can have it stretch the image to a higher resolution so you don't end up with a tiny box when you are inputting some low resolution and outputting to a high resolution monitor.

Input and output refresh rate can bet different as well.

Thank you all for the tips, especially the TVONE PC/HD Cross Converter as suggested by cyclone3d. I love gadgets like that, and I used to have a scan converter in the late 90's - early 2000's that I used to play MP games of Dark Forces II on my 27 inch TV via S-Video. I remember that despite the lack of dot pitch, it looked pretty good - better than a Nintendo 64 and equal to or better than a Playstation 2.

I have looked at a few of the LCD models listed in the thread, and I have a couple of them saved in my ebay watch list. My hope is to find a monitor with 70Hz support in 4:3 mode , but that also has a physical bezel width of 20 inches in order to have the largest 4:3 display as possible, with the 20 inch physical width being due to the shape and size of the desk. Until I deal with or replace my NOS KDS that needs repair, I have an HP LP2065 that I am using in order to continue working on my different OS installs on my SD cards. However, there are "splotches that have appeared in the upper corner, and there is "noise" occurring, and none of this was happening when I bought it a few months ago - and I have barely used it (just like the KDS situation.) Perhaps I am cursed, because I also got my P3 600Mhz CPU today and slapped it onto my P2B and while it is seen during post, the PC is now locking up at various times... I am truly starting to wonder if some supernatural power wants me to either put my hobby on hold, or give it up entirely, because all of my parts and/or upgrades are either breaking or not working properly. It is happening WAY to often to be a string of coincidences. Even my main PC is randomly locking up, but I have so much crap on it that I am loathe to format-reinstall.

The best luck I've had with LCD's for gaming have been mostly older Dell 4:3 LCD's - actually I just scored two of these in 17" from work (were getting rid of all of them because user's complain too much). Though I mostly got those for managing my Plex Media Server locally (CentOS has a really funky habit of jacking up my bootloader configs to exclude the RAID driver for some reason). But I figured I'd keep the second around for one of my old VGA desktop machines like the 286 or 486 just in case my CRT's start to die (I have 4).

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-03, 19:22:

Jo22 wrote on 2021-06-03, 19:06:

That's cool, thanks a lot for the tip! 😎

Yeah, it is a really sweet device. you can have it letter-box the input resolution on the output so you can get the correct aspect-ratio no matter the monitor you are using. Pretty sure you can have it stretch the image to a higher resolution so you don't end up with a tiny box when you are inputting some low resolution and outputting to a high resolution monitor.

Input and output refresh rate can bet different as well.

It looks like a nice device whose existence I somehow managed to miss until seeing this thread. Full range chroma sampling, arbitrary refresh rate support (in and out) is nice.

Caveats/questions :
a) Conversion back to analogue on output may be a non-issue from a quality point of view if well implemented on the converter, but may be problematic because
a1) analogue RGBHV (VGA) input on new/upcoming monitors will likely no longer be a thing soon-ish
a2) even on those monitors that will still have such an input support for odd/old/uncommon refresh rates/resolutions will not necessarily be very good (or as wide as over HDMI/DP) nor might implementation quality of analogue input . This is admittedly conjecture on my part, but as analogue RGBHV becomes an afterthought, why would manufacturers bother much with it?)
b) I wonder what its scaling look like ? Fans of integer scaling may be disappointed here, but the wealth of video-centric features (reverse-pulldown and deinterlacing options) will certainly be appreciated by some people who need/want those features
c) How good or bad is latency ? This info is not disclosed in the manual (unless I missed it). Other similar devices (described in the manual) that also support audio input have audio delay options, so if this specific device is meant for the broadcast industry, maybe the expectation is that the user will adjust audio delay manually, as needed, downstream of the device . If latency, in at least some scenarios, is big enough to be perceptible with audio-sync issues, it would be deal-breaker for me . To be clear, I am not saying that it is, I am just asking the question.

There is definitely potential for greatness here but, as they say, the devil is in the details . Ideally, if somebody with access to one of these, an Extron RGB-DVI 300 (or similar), an OSSC and high quality DVI and analogue RGBHV capture device(s) also had the time and motivation to run some comparisons and post results, it would be very useful/interesting to see. Anybody know of qualified YT content producer who would want to take up such a project ? 😉

darry wrote on 2021-06-03, 23:07:

It looks like a nice device whose existence I somehow managed to miss until seeing this thread. Full range chroma sampling, arbi […]
Show full quote

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-06-03, 19:22:

Jo22 wrote on 2021-06-03, 19:06:

That's cool, thanks a lot for the tip! 😎

Yeah, it is a really sweet device. you can have it letter-box the input resolution on the output so you can get the correct aspect-ratio no matter the monitor you are using. Pretty sure you can have it stretch the image to a higher resolution so you don't end up with a tiny box when you are inputting some low resolution and outputting to a high resolution monitor.

Input and output refresh rate can bet different as well.

It looks like a nice device whose existence I somehow managed to miss until seeing this thread. Full range chroma sampling, arbitrary refresh rate support (in and out) is nice.

Caveats/questions :
a) Conversion back to analogue on output may be a non-issue from a quality point of view if well implemented on the converter, but may be problematic because
a1) analogue RGBHV (VGA) input on new/upcoming monitors will likely no longer be a thing soon-ish
a2) even on those monitors that will still have such an input support for odd/old/uncommon refresh rates/resolutions will not necessarily be very good (or as wide as over HDMI/DP) nor might implementation quality of analogue input . This is admittedly conjecture on my part, but as analogue RGBHV becomes an afterthought, why would manufacturers bother much with it?)
b) I wonder what its scaling look like ? Fans of integer scaling may be disappointed here, but the wealth of video-centric features (reverse-pulldown and deinterlacing options) will certainly be appreciated by some people who need/want those features
c) How good or bad is latency ? This info is not disclosed in the manual (unless I missed it). Other similar devices (described in the manual) that also support audio input have audio delay options, so if this specific device is meant for the broadcast industry, maybe the expectation is that the user will adjust audio delay manually, as needed, downstream of the device . If latency, in at least some scenarios, is big enough to be perceptible with audio-sync issues, it would be deal-breaker for me . To be clear, I am not saying that it is, I am just asking the question.

There is definitely potential for greatness here but, as they say, the devil is in the details . Ideally, if somebody with access to one of these, an Extron RGB-DVI 300 (or similar), an OSSC and high quality DVI and analogue RGBHV capture device(s) also had the time and motivation to run some comparisons and post results, it would be very useful/interesting to see. Anybody know of qualified YT content producer who would want to take up such a project ? 😉

I was going to buy an OSSC. However, after you and I exchanged posts on a similar thread a little while back, I looked into it and saw that a new version is coming out. I will probably want the updated version, or perhaps the original OSSC will come down in price. Ironically, I planned on creating a YT channel to discuss my retro hobbies and show off my set up and some games, until my KDS wigged (and set all of my projects back until I can resolve the issue.)

Another issue I am having is that my HP2065 that I am using for now has "noise;" like a wavering or shimmering on the characters during the post and boot process. The issue goes away once windows is loaded. This has me concerned about using MS-DOS. I don't know if it is my monitor, setup, or environment that is causing it. I am going to unplug it from the surge protector and plug it directly into the wall. If it goes away, I am going to wonder if the surge protector had anything to do with my NOS CRT KDS wigging out...

I believe that can happen with video card caps getting tired... but I've also seen it when a whole motherboard is going cap-put.