VOGONS


First post, by SpocksBeer

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Hello all,

Just thought I'd share my experiences recently with finding the right video card for my system. The system in question is a P133, 64mb RAM. Nothing special, I have faster systems elsewhere, but this is my current project and should make a nice DOS era PC.

It came originally with a S3 Trio 64V+. It worked fine, but I found the video output, when pared with the CRT I'm using (Samsung 753DFX) to be very washed out. Shadow details in dark games like Heretic were poor. This is of course a known problem with the black level of many S3 cards (see here), though I didn't realise the it affected Trios as well as the Virge series. I obtained a Diamond 4MB Virge/DX and confirmed that the S3Bright utility would change the black levels. This definitely improved things over the Trio, but it still wasn't great.

I had a Macronix MX82600 lying around, and to my surprise the image quality of this card was vastly superior to the Virge when driving this monitor. Black levels and brightness were greatly improved, to the point of being able to turn down the brightness on the monitor itself. At this point I started doing some DOS benchmarking, just using Phils scripts. Unfortunately the MX82600 turned out to be quite slow, so the search continued.

Next I tried a Voodoo Rush from IO-Data. This performed well, but the image quality was only on par with the Virge. Also, the default BIOS has a really weird looking DOS font.

Next, a Trident TGUI9440. This turned out to be the worst performer of all, also with only "OK" image quality.

Finally I found an ET6000. This turned out to be the best of both worlds, great performance and black levels like the Macronix. Success! Paired with a Voodoo1 this should be an excellent DOS gamer.

I've attached my benchmarking results, should anyone else be interested.

Happy retro!

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Reply 1 of 13, by Gmlb256

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Hello!

I'd recommend instead using the S3 cards for compatibility reasons. The image quality and the brightness can vary between manufactures. Of the S3 cards I have only the Compaq ViRGE/GX has higher quality components and doesn't suffer from the brightness bug.

You can check Gona's list to see which video card really works for you:
https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 2 of 13, by SpocksBeer

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I was wondering about compatibility. I'll fire up some of those games and see how I go, but at the end of the day I don't have unlimited resources, and finding a "good" Virge seems to be a crapshoot.

Reply 3 of 13, by Gmlb256

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SpocksBeer wrote on 2021-09-20, 04:01:

finding a "good" Virge seems to be a crapshoot.

One good tip for finding a good S3 ViRGE card is to stay away from the noname ones. Of the good manufactures for S3 cards I know they are STB, ELSA and Compaq (the one which I mentioned).

Currently I'm seeing two Compaq ViRGE/GX around $20 on eBay.

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 5 of 13, by canthearu

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Importance of perfect compatibility is probably a bit overblown.

If you don't like the Keen platformers, or have other computers capable of playing them well, is there a real reason to have every computer specifically designed for maximum compatibility?

Reply 6 of 13, by Gmlb256

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canthearu wrote on 2021-09-20, 04:23:

Importance of perfect compatibility is probably a bit overblown.

If you don't like the Keen platformers, or have other computers capable of playing them well, is there a real reason to have every computer specifically designed for maximum compatibility?

Well it depends whether the OP likes these games or not, that list has some obscure games. There are other games that one could test such as Jazz Jackrabbit as I've heard on this forum that it has issues with the Tseng ET6000.

Cirrus Logic GD5446 is also a decent alternative but I mostly see noname ones and their VESA support is inferior compared to S3 and Tseng. nVidia cards are also great if one doesn't care about 15bpp and if he could find PCI ones at a low price.

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 7 of 13, by canthearu

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-20, 04:36:

Well it depends whether the OP likes these games or not, that list has some obscure games. There are other games that one could test such as Jazz Jackrabbit as I've heard on this forum that it has issues with the Tseng ET6000.

Cirrus Logic GD5446 is also a decent alternative but I mostly see noname ones and their VESA support is inferior compared to S3 and Tseng. nVidia cards are also great if one doesn't care about 15bpp and if he could find PCI ones at a low price.

Funny enough, I got an ET6000 yesterday and I have a GD5446 on it's way to me now!

Reply 9 of 13, by Gmlb256

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I stopped bothering with "cool" PCI cards a long time ago, just don't want any user to get disappointed on the long run. 😉

VIA C3 Nehemiah 1.2A @ 1.46 GHz | ASUS P2-99 | 256 MB PC133 SDRAM | GeForce3 Ti 200 64 MB | Voodoo2 12 MB | SBLive! | AWE64 | SBPro2 | GUS

Reply 10 of 13, by SpocksBeer

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Oh it's really just for fun and learning, with a side of information sharing for others. Looking at the compatibility matrix, the Macronix card actually looks pretty great, and a couple of FPS here or there isn't much of a factor to be honest.

I'm mostly just interested in how the "gold standard" (or even the cheap rubbish) cards stack up in the context of this PC, and with this monitor.

Reply 11 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2021-09-20, 04:36:
canthearu wrote on 2021-09-20, 04:23:

Importance of perfect compatibility is probably a bit overblown.

If you don't like the Keen platformers, or have other computers capable of playing them well, is there a real reason to have every computer specifically designed for maximum compatibility?

Well it depends whether the OP likes these games or not, that list has some obscure games. There are other games that one could test such as Jazz Jackrabbit as I've heard on this forum that it has issues with the Tseng ET6000.

Cirrus Logic GD5446 is also a decent alternative but I mostly see noname ones and their VESA support is inferior compared to S3 and Tseng. nVidia cards are also great if one doesn't care about 15bpp and if he could find PCI ones at a low price.

I can confirm , jazz jackrabbit will give you garbled graphics with a ET6000 , I think the card lacking mode X is why.
On the plus side it will produce some pretty demented graphics for a bit of fun xD

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I've pretty much settled on using a ELSA S3 Trio64V2 DX , seems to have pretty decent compatibility while being reasonably quick.

Reply 12 of 13, by Joseph_Joestar

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As mentioned earlier, the image quality of S3 Trio/Virge cards varies greatly depending on the manufacturer.

After using some no-name versions of both, I recently got a Hercules Terminator 64/Video which is absolutely superb. Image quality is excellent, and it can deliver refresh rates up to 120 Hz on my CRT monitor, in both DOS and Windows. More details here.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / YMF719 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 2100+ / ECS K7VTA3 / Voodoo3 / Audigy2 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy2
PC#4: i5-3570K / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 970 / X-Fi

Reply 13 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-09-20, 06:19:

As mentioned earlier, the image quality of S3 Trio/Virge cards varies greatly depending on the manufacturer.

After using some no-name versions of both, I recently got a Hercules Terminator 64/Video which is absolutely superb. Image quality is excellent, and it can deliver refresh rates up to 120 Hz on my CRT monitor, in both DOS and Windows. More details here.

Very nice! , yeah I guess it depended on who made the board , there's so many no name cards that it makes sense people would rather go for one of those since they tend to be cheaper and more abundant.

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