VOGONS


First post, by pixel_workbench

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While looking into suspiciously low performance of my Radeon HD graphics cards, I stumbled on a nasty surprise - newer Catalyst drivers for Windows XP are slower than older ones, sometimes much slower. I tested several games and benchmarks from about the 2007 - 2009 time period, and you can see the results in the charts below. The test rig was a Core2 Duo e7300 system, running Windows XP SP3. All tests were run at 1920 x 1080 resolution.

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The Radeon HD 4890 performs the best with the oldest driver I tested - Catalyst 10.2, and it's all downhill from there. The latest official XP driver Catalyst 13.1 performs the worst.

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Things are looking better for the Radeon HD 5770, and Catalyst 10.2 through 12.4 perform about the same. But the last XP driver 14.4 again causes noticeably lower performance.

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The Radeon HD 6950 actually saw an improvement going from Catalyst 11.5 to 12.4. Unfortunately with Catalyst 13.4 and later it also suffers a big drop in performance.

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And lastly, we have the Radeon HD 7970. While it appears that performance is more or less the same, except for Fallout 3, the newer drivers actually cause much higher GPU utilization for no good reason. So it's likely that the card was a lot more CPU limited with the earlier drivers, and would also see a decline with newer drivers. This is something I'll have to test in the near future.
This also means that the first generation GCN cards (7970, 7870, and the 7870 rebadged as R9 270x) are preferable over the later GCN cards (7790, R7 260x) for XP gaming because you can use the earlier 12.4 driver.

UPDATE
Added additional results in a post below, this time using a newer LGA2011 test rig.
Re: AMD Catalyst drivers for Windows XP - newer is NOT better

For additional details and commentary, you can read about it on my website here:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Last edited by pixel_workbench on 2022-06-14, 05:07. Edited 4 times in total.

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Reply 1 of 39, by The Serpent Rider

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Not much of a surprise here, because drivers that can work with GCN GPUs are primarily optimized for them.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2022-06-04, 19:02. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 2 of 39, by bloodem

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Yeah, and this isn't even specific to AMD/ATI. It applies to all video cards.
It's even worse with nVIDIA cards and some of the very late XP drivers which completely break compatibility with older titles.

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Reply 3 of 39, by bakemono

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I'm guessing those are all DirectX 9 games? At least the games run. OpenGL 3-4 support seems to be buggy on all these Radeon drivers.

again another retro game on itch: https://90soft90.itch.io/shmup-salad

Reply 4 of 39, by Joseph_Joestar

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pixel_workbench wrote on 2022-06-04, 05:12:

While looking into suspiciously low performance of my Radeon HD graphics cards, I stumbled on a nasty surprise - newer Catalyst drivers for Windows XP are slower than older ones, sometimes much slower.

Very interesting findings! Thanks for researching this so thoroughly. There's also a report from @swaaye that Catalyst 7.11 is the last known good driver version for early WinXP game compatibility:

swaaye wrote:

This is the official package of Catalyst 7.11 for XP 32-bit. This driver supports Radeon 9500 through HD 3xxx GPUs. Drivers after this release have new compatibility issues with older OpenGL games (like KOTOR1/2) due to a new OpenGL ICD that removed support for some extensions. It may also work better with some DirectX 7/8 games.

That release also introduced proper table fog support on ATi Radeon cards.

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Reply 5 of 39, by Gmlb256

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bakemono wrote on 2022-06-04, 18:45:

I'm guessing those are all DirectX 9 games? At least the games run. OpenGL 3-4 support seems to be buggy on all these Radeon drivers.

The Radeon OpenGL ICD weren't that good and had higher CPU overhead. IIRC, it was fine-tuned for certain id Software titles.

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Reply 6 of 39, by Hoping

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One question, is it possible that this behavior is the same in Windows 7?
The reason, I also have the graphics cards that were tested and the truth is that I never investigated it much, only the case of the HD 6950 that with the latest drivers loses performance and compatibility.

Reply 7 of 39, by kitten.may.cry

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Hoping wrote on 2022-06-05, 15:45:

One question, is it possible that this behavior is the same in Windows 7?
The reason, I also have the graphics cards that were tested and the truth is that I never investigated it much, only the case of the HD 6950 that with the latest drivers loses performance and compatibility.

Considering Windows 7 is far more demanding...

Reply 8 of 39, by Gmlb256

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kitten.may.cry wrote on 2022-06-05, 16:01:
Hoping wrote on 2022-06-05, 15:45:

One question, is it possible that this behavior is the same in Windows 7?
The reason, I also have the graphics cards that were tested and the truth is that I never investigated it much, only the case of the HD 6950 that with the latest drivers loses performance and compatibility.

Considering Windows 7 is far more demanding...

Not really, the initial Windows XP system requirements is outdated and updates added more overhead that wasn't in the original release. The only "demanding" parts since Windows Vista and 7 is the RAM usage (especially with 64-bit versions) and DWM which uses Direct3D but even Intel IGP that meets the requirements can handle this without problem.

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Reply 9 of 39, by GokuSS4

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I remember these old Omega Drivers with modified opengl drivers helping a lot
https://web.archive.org/web/20071028174412/ht … ti/win2k_xp.php

https://www.guru3d.com/files-categories ... fied).html

NGO ATI Optimized Driver
DNA ATI
Radeon Omega Drivers

how do they compare?

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Win98SE Pentium E5800 | 775i65G R3.0 | 512MB DDR1-400 CL2 | X850 XT

Reply 10 of 39, by pixel_workbench

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Added additional results, this time using a much faster and newer LGA2011 platform and a Xeon E5 1660 processor.

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With the Radeon HD 6950, the overall trend remains unchanged. With the exception of Crysis, all other tests showed worse results when moving from Catalyst 12.4 to versions 13.4 or 14.4. The drop in Fallout 3 remains particularly bad.

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Things look much better for the Radeon HD 7970 on the newer platform. There is no longer a massive drop in Fallout 3, and the other tests show roughly similar performance between driver versions, with minor gains or losses. GPU utilization is still higher in Catalyst 13.4 and 14.4 across all tests, so one can argue that 12.4 remains a better choice for XP games.

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Reply 11 of 39, by gerwin

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Partly because of this driver test, I finally decided to slightly upgrade a Radeon HD 6670 to a HD 7750 (GCN1). Both passively cooled Sapphire cards, 1GB GDDR5. Mainly for Windows XP SP3. Mainboard is intel 6-series for Sandy/Ivy Bridge processors.

I was reluctant because, back then in 2012, it took me a while to find a driver version for the HD 6670 to my liking:
That was Catalyst version (20)11.10. With atioglxx.dll from driver version (20)11.5 for better OpenGL compatibility. It still had some issues with Firefox and VLC hardware acceleration options. But it ran everything else quite well.

So for the HD 7750 then:
1) Driver (20)12.4 has two compatibility issues:
Games like eDuke32 and GZDoom have problems with transparent sprites. I can see the rectangular outlines of these textures. This is an atioglxx.dll OpenGL issue.
As for DirectX games: all Lucasarts X-Wing (Alliance) / TIE Fighter windows versions have a rendering problem where polygons stretch to the top-left corner. This happens regardless of any XWA-hacker fixes.
This last issue is very niche, but the OpenGL issue is bad.
2) Driver (20)12.6 solved the eDuke32 and GZDoom OpenGL problem. But X-Wing (Alliance) / TIE Fighter are still broken
3) Driver (20)13.1 Both issues solved. I actually have zero compatibility problems with this driver so far. Almost too good to be true...

About performance. First ran the usual 3DMark2001 benchmark, but that one is not giving sensible results anymore with this card.
3DMark 2005 then for driver 13.1: 28025 Marks (GT1=115,8 fps / GT2=88,1 fps / GT3=138,1 fps)
On the same system, booted into Windows 7 x64 (2014 level) with Driver Catalyst 13.1. The results are the same: 28104 Marks.
(References: Same HD 6670 at 21272 marks driver 11.6 / same HD 7750 at 27110 marks driver 13.1)

I checked power saving features. And with GPU-Z I do see PCI-Express lane idling depending on workload. Except it remains on 8x-lanes and switches PCI-Express version 1.1 to 2.0 instead. Same in Windows 7. Not what I expected. Voltage and Frequency switching are working.
(Regarding problematic CPU idling / power saving on LGA2011 as mentioned Here at bonus content - Windows XP CPU idling works on the intel 6-Series: Multiplier switches to idle, normal or turbo, according to CPU-Z)

There is another multi-boot with Linux (Solus) and it had automatically switched to AMDGPU drivers with this 7750 card. AFAIK two years ago the older RADEON driver was still the default for GCN1 (Southern Islands) based graphics cards. Fortunately it seems that now in 2022, AMDGPU driver is working well with GCN1.

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Reply 12 of 39, by pixel_workbench

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Good find. With all these results, I must admit the AMD HD4000-6000 cards look less appealing now for late XP games, compared to GCN1.

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Reply 13 of 39, by pentiumspeed

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gerwin wrote on 2022-09-20, 21:26:
Partly because of this driver test, I finally decided to slightly upgrade a Radeon HD 6670 to a HD 7750 (GCN1). Both passively c […]
Show full quote

Partly because of this driver test, I finally decided to slightly upgrade a Radeon HD 6670 to a HD 7750 (GCN1). Both passively cooled Sapphire cards, 1GB GDDR5. Mainly for Windows XP SP3. Mainboard is intel 6-series for Sandy/Ivy Bridge processors.

I was reluctant because, back then in 2012, it took me a while to find a driver version for the HD 6670 to my liking:
That was Catalyst version (20)11.10. With atioglxx.dll from driver version (20)11.5 for better OpenGL compatibility. It still had some issues with Firefox and VLC hardware acceleration options. But it ran everything else quite well.

So for the HD 7750 then:
1) Driver (20)12.4 has two compatibility issues:
Games like eDuke32 and GZDoom have problems with transparent sprites. I can see the rectangular outlines of these textures. This is an atioglxx.dll OpenGL issue.
As for DirectX games: all Lucasarts X-Wing (Alliance) / TIE Fighter windows versions have a rendering problem where polygons stretch to the top-left corner. This happens regardless of any XWA-hacker fixes.
This last issue is very niche, but the OpenGL issue is bad.
2) Driver (20)12.6 solved the eDuke32 and GZDoom OpenGL problem. But X-Wing (Alliance) / TIE Fighter are still broken
3) Driver (20)13.1 Both issues solved. I actually have zero compatibility problems with this driver so far. Almost too good to be true...

About performance. First ran the usual 3DMark2001 benchmark, but that one is not giving sensible results anymore with this card.
3DMark 2005 then for driver 13.1: 28025 Marks (GT1=115,8 fps / GT2=88,1 fps / GT3=138,1 fps)
On the same system, booted into Windows 7 x64 (2014 level) with Driver Catalyst 13.1. The results are the same: 28104 Marks.
(References: Same HD 6670 at 21272 marks driver 11.6 / same HD 7750 at 27110 marks driver 13.1)

I checked power saving features. And with GPU-Z I do see PCI-Express lane idling depending on workload. Except it remains on 8x-lanes and switches PCI-Express version 1.1 to 2.0 instead. Same in Windows 7. Not what I expected. Voltage and Frequency switching are working.
(Regarding problematic CPU idling / power saving on LGA2011 as mentioned Here at bonus content - Windows XP CPU idling works on the intel 6-Series: Multiplier switches to idle, normal or turbo, according to CPU-Z)

There is another multi-boot with Linux (Solus) and it had automatically switched to AMDGPU drivers with this 7750 card. AFAIK two years ago the older RADEON driver was still the default for GCN1 (Southern Islands) based graphics cards. Fortunately it seems that now in 2022, AMDGPU driver is working well with GCN1.

Intel 6 series chipset what is yours? 6 series is made for Sandy Bridge and Sandy Bridge is PCI-e 2.0 only also if the mother board is low end, you will only have x8 if other items is using other half of PCI-e x8. To get full use of PCI-e 3.0 x16 with HD7750, you need a inte 7 series and a Ivy Bridge processor.

Cheers,

Great Northern aka Canada.

Reply 14 of 39, by gerwin

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pentiumspeed wrote on 2022-09-24, 22:53:

Intel 6 series chipset what is yours? 6 series is made for Sandy Bridge and Sandy Bridge is PCI-e 2.0 only also if the mother board is low end, you will only have x8 if other items is using other half of PCI-e x8. To get full use of PCI-e 3.0 x16 with HD7750, you need a inte 7 series and a Ivy Bridge processor.
Cheers,

It is a GA-Z68MX-UD2H-B3 rev1.3 Motherboard.
Notice that it actually says "PCI Express 3.0" Below the third PCI-E slot. Attached the GPU-Z screenshots of both mentioned cards when not idle.
I am not worried that 8x lanes PCI-E is much of a bottleneck.

gerwin wrote on 2022-09-20, 21:26:

3) Driver (20)13.1 Both issues solved. I actually have zero compatibility problems with this driver so far. Almost too good to be true...

The game Il-2 Forgotten Battles actually did show OpenGL water rendering problems when FSAA was forced. So I placed atioglxx.dll v12.6 in the game's root and that fixed it.
Besides that, I noticed atioglxx.dll v13.1 and v 14.4 have the same file size of 18.964.480 bytes. Which suggests the OpenGL driver got no changes in that period.

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Reply 15 of 39, by swaaye

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There was a second generation of Z68 boards that gained support for Ivy Bridge's x16 PCIe 3.0 lanes.

I came across strange stuttering with Oblivion when playing with 2600XT and 2900XT years ago that was solved with using old drivers. I just picked 10.6 at random. So I typically run old drivers for XP with the HD cards. With the D3D9 and HD 2000-3000 cards one can also run Cat 7.11 which has maybe their best OpenGL ICD for oldies. With Cat 7.12 onward the OpenGL was modernized and lost some old extensions.

Reply 16 of 39, by kasfruit

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the conlusing I can draw from this thread is that the older cards run better with older drivers and this is normal because the driver is unique to all cards however every card uses different chips or technology so you can't match them 100%

Reply 17 of 39, by kasfruit

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I have a ATI 7750 that I mostly use with W7 x64 and it seems to perform equally well or better than a GTX 460 (same setup) even though the 460 scores much better in all benchmarks

I was looking for a direct replacement which seems to be the R7 250 but it's built upon different variants and this drives me crazy to find the right one. (it must be 2GB GDDR5 NOT DDR3)
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/asus-r7-250.b2488
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r7-250e.c2559
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/asus-r7 … -gb-gddr5.b4683

the R7 350 doesn't have drivers for XP I wonder if older drivers may work with it....???????
surprinsingly the performance is the same or even worse than the R7 250 Cape Verde variant.... !!!!!!!
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-r7-350.c3135

I am getting a litte tired of this and maybe will just stick to my initial alternative option which was the GTX 750

Reply 18 of 39, by DoZator

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kasfruit wrote on 2023-09-23, 22:54:

the R7 350 doesn't have drivers for XP I wonder if older drivers may work with it....???????

Due to not having the appropriate hardware, I have no way to check this, but in the installation INF of one of the extreme releases of the AMD Radeon driver for Windows XP:
https://www.amd.com/zh-hans/support/kb/releas … ndows-xp-driver

This card is present among others:

AMD6610. 1 = "AMD Radeon (TM) R7 350"

Reply 19 of 39, by agent_x007

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Would like to see Cat 9.1 tested (for cards that support it).
As for R7 250, it does work with moded drivers, example :

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All cards based on "Oland" die will work on XP.

Driver source (bottom of page) :

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Link : https://www.philscomputerlab.com/ati-xp-graph … cs-drivers.html