predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 08:01:

But how big is the difference really between ati and readeon when playing this games. Is it really that obvious or can it be overlocked if you do not look for it?

It depends on the game. Missing table fog in particular is very noticeable on cards that don't support it.

I assume you've browsed through this thread: Table Fog & 8-bit Paletted Textures There are many screenshots there which demonstrate the differences between various cards. Here are a couple of examples:

And if you're interested in paletted textures, check this video of Driver to see the difference in action.

Thanks a lot for the video and the link @Joseph_Joestar. You are partially right btw. I browsed a bit through the thread but have not read every page. I missed the part of the thread with the pictures. My bad.

I agree that it depends on the game. In some games, the difference is negligible while in some other games, the difference is striking because the fog contributes a lot to the atmosphere.

I think the atmosphere is more important to me than the potential higher resolution that is not really necessary. We had that discussion already in my other thread and according to the pictures you shared with me bumping up the resolution to 1600x1200 is not a must for Windows 98 games

So I'd rather lean toward the GF 3, 4, or one of the fx series cards

It seems there's no table fog at all on those ATi screenshots.
Given the right combination of hardware and drivers, table fog can be enabled on ATi cards, but you need to manually enable it with a registry setting, as it is not accessible via the control panel.
https://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?7 … -for-the-Radeon

Scali wrote on 2023-05-11, 09:50:

It seems there's no table fog at all on those ATi screenshots.
Given the right combination of hardware and drivers, table fog can be enabled on ATi cards, but you need to manually enable it with a registry setting, as it is not accessible via the control panel.
https://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?7 … -for-the-Radeon

While it is indeed possible to restore some table fog functionality on Radeon cards under Win9x by tweaking some registry settings (I've posted the instructions here) the result will look subpar compared to Nvidia and 3DFX cards (see pic below), and this tweak won't work for every game.

The only way to get proper table fog functionality on Radeon cards is to use Catalyst drivers 7.11 (or newer) under WinXP. The same result cannot be achieved under Win9x.

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 08:37:

So I'd rather lean toward the GF 3, 4, or one of the fx series cards

Note that FX cards have some compatibility issues of their own.

In my view, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 Ti cards offer the best ratio of power vs. compatibility under Win9x.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-11, 10:44:

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 08:37:

So I'd rather lean toward the GF 3, 4, or one of the fx series cards

Note that FX cards have some compatibility issues of their own.

In my view, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 Ti cards offer the best ratio of power vs. compatibility under Win9x.

Thanks for the info. was not aware about the issues.

in that case everything is clear. It is going to be GF 3 or 4. Either the GF 3 ti 200 or the gf 4 4200 ti. These cards seem to have good specs for time frame of games they do not cost a fortune.

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:12:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-11, 10:44:

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 08:37:

So I'd rather lean toward the GF 3, 4, or one of the fx series cards

Note that FX cards have some compatibility issues of their own.

In my view, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 Ti cards offer the best ratio of power vs. compatibility under Win9x.

Thanks for the info. was not aware about the issues.

in that case everything is clear. It is going to be GF 3 or 4. Either the GF 3 ti 200 or the gf 4 4200 ti. These cards seem to have good specs for time frame of games they do not cost a fortune.

Honestly the Geforce 3 cards offer the widest compatibility for this Era as many games were ported over from the XBOX which also used a Geforce 3 GPU. I use a Geforce 3 Ti 500 myself on my 98se box just because of this simple fact, and the Splinter Cell games look the best on that card due to it fully supporting the shadowing and lighting used.

Nvidia broke the Shadow and lighting with the Splinter Cell games on the Geforce 4 and Up as how it was done was changed in hardware. (This has been partially fixed recently with a community patch but it still doesnt look totally correct when compared with period correct GF3 hardware)

For reference the Ti500 is slightly faster than the Ti4200 but slower than the Ti4400.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:32:

Nvidia broke the Shadow and lighting with the Splinter Cell games on the Geforce 4 and Up as how it was done was changed in hardware.

If you mean Shadow Buffers, those work fine on GeForce 4 Ti and FX cards as well. This is even stated in the game's documentation. It's with the GeForce 6 series that Splinter Cell started looking bad.

Phil has a bunch of videos on the subject. And as someone who currently owns a GeForce 3 Ti500, a GeForce 4 Ti4200, a GeForce FX 5900XT and a GeForce 6600GT, I can confirm his findings.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:39:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:32:

Nvidia broke the Shadow and lighting with the Splinter Cell games on the Geforce 4 and Up as how it was done was changed in hardware.

If you mean Shadow Buffers, those work fine on GeForce 4 Ti and FX cards as well. This is even stated in the game's documentation. It's with the GeForce 6 series that Splinter Cell started looking bad.

Phil has a bunch of videos on the subject. And as someone who currently owns a GeForce 3 Ti500, a GeForce 4 Ti4200, a GeForce FX 5900XT and a GeForce 6600GT, I can confirm his findings.

Ah that's good to know, still stand by the GF3 Ti500 though, its a rock solid card for games from that period especially the Xbox ports.

I don't remember what the weird tech was that the Xbox used for its shadow and lighting, I do know that nVidia stopped using it for some reason on PC, may have been a change with how Direct 3D processes stuff or even a change with how shaders handle it. (Quick read and it was a combination of changes in both hardware and software that broke Shadow Buffers)

I do remember it getting royally broken enough to make the Splinter Cell games (One and Pandora) look incorrect with the shadows and lights.

The GeForce 4 is merely a slightly improved GeForce 3, and they share the same basic architecture and drivers, so I wouldn't expect much of a difference in compatibility, if at all.
The main changes are that the GF4 supports pixelshader 1.3, where GF3 is limited to 1.1, and the GF4 has an extra vertex shader unit and pixel pipelines which run faster and are slightly more efficient.
All in all the GF4 is basically a faster GF3.

Note: avoid the GF4MX, which was a low-budget model based on the GF2 architecture instead of the GF3 architecture. As such, it does not support shaders, and it is not very fast either. So stick to the Ti4200/4400/4600 models.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:32:

Honestly the Geforce 3 cards offer the widest compatibility for this Era as many games were ported over from the XBOX which also […]
Show full quote

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:12:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-05-11, 10:44:

Note that FX cards have some compatibility issues of their own.

In my view, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 Ti cards offer the best ratio of power vs. compatibility under Win9x.

Thanks for the info. was not aware about the issues.

in that case everything is clear. It is going to be GF 3 or 4. Either the GF 3 ti 200 or the gf 4 4200 ti. These cards seem to have good specs for time frame of games they do not cost a fortune.

Honestly the Geforce 3 cards offer the widest compatibility for this Era as many games were ported over from the XBOX which also used a Geforce 3 GPU. I use a Geforce 3 Ti 500 myself on my 98se box just because of this simple fact, and the Splinter Cell games look the best on that card due to it fully supporting the shadowing and lighting used.

Nvidia broke the Shadow and lighting with the Splinter Cell games on the Geforce 4 and Up as how it was done was changed in hardware. (This has been partially fixed recently with a community patch but it still doesnt look totally correct when compared with period correct GF3 hardware)

For reference the Ti500 is slightly faster than the Ti4200 but slower than the Ti4400.

Thanks for sharing your impressions. Funny thing you mention Splinter Cell. Although I have played Splinter Cell on the Gamecube I have always been curious how about the orginal PC version looks. Never got into that game because I have also read that does not look that good on later gen GPU.

Also thanks for informing me about the GF Ti 500. This card never crossed my mind because it was not listed as frequent as the ti 200 but I have looked into the price and this card can be rather expensive but also quite cheap at the same time.

If it should be available ever once again the ASUS V8200T5/PURE/64M Nvidia GeForce3 Ti500 Deluxe VGA AGP 64MB DDR for example would have a good price on electromyne.

@all In case I should decide to go gf 3 ti would be a good idea to keep my eyes open in case I can the ti 500 at good price or is the difference between ti 200 and the 500 neglectable for the 97 to 2000 gaming area?

edit @Scali Sorry did not see your post at first. Thx for your input and warning about the GF4MX as well.

Like I said in case I am going for the GF the 4200 ti would be my first choice. Simply because of the price point.

But of course have to admit that price point is rather fickle and it is not impossible to find 4400 and 4600 rather cheap when I am willing to wait long enough and watch the market.

I have no problem with waiting because it will take some time anyway to get all the parts. I also need to watch the market close to get proper motherboard and cpu. I have plenty of time.

I believe the 4600 would be the best of bunch right?

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 12:02:

@all In case I should decide to go gf 3 ti would be a good idea to keep my eyes open in case I can the ti 500 at good price or is the difference between ti 200 and the 500 neglectable for the 97 to 2000 gaming area?

I believe a Ti500 is about 20-30% faster than a Ti200, depending on the exact game and settings you run at.
So it's not going to make a world of difference, but it may just allow you to run a game at a slightly higher resolution with the same framerate.

The difference between a Ti4200 and a Ti4600 is also around 20%-30%.
A Ti4200 in turn is some 5-10% faster than a GF3Ti500, again depending on the exact game and settings.

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 12:02:

Thanks for sharing your impressions. Funny thing you mention Splinter Cell. Although I have played Splinter Cell on the Gamecube […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:32:

Honestly the Geforce 3 cards offer the widest compatibility for this Era as many games were ported over from the XBOX which also […]
Show full quote

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 11:12:

Thanks for the info. was not aware about the issues.

in that case everything is clear. It is going to be GF 3 or 4. Either the GF 3 ti 200 or the gf 4 4200 ti. These cards seem to have good specs for time frame of games they do not cost a fortune.

Honestly the Geforce 3 cards offer the widest compatibility for this Era as many games were ported over from the XBOX which also used a Geforce 3 GPU. I use a Geforce 3 Ti 500 myself on my 98se box just because of this simple fact, and the Splinter Cell games look the best on that card due to it fully supporting the shadowing and lighting used.

Nvidia broke the Shadow and lighting with the Splinter Cell games on the Geforce 4 and Up as how it was done was changed in hardware. (This has been partially fixed recently with a community patch but it still doesnt look totally correct when compared with period correct GF3 hardware)

For reference the Ti500 is slightly faster than the Ti4200 but slower than the Ti4400.

Thanks for sharing your impressions. Funny thing you mention Splinter Cell. Although I have played Splinter Cell on the Gamecube I have always been curious how about the orginal PC version looks. Never got into that game because I have also read that does not look that good on later gen GPU.

Also thanks for informing me about the GF Ti 500. This card never crossed my mind because it was not listed as frequent as the ti 200 but I have looked into the price and this card can be rather expensive but also quite cheap at the same time.

If it should be available ever once again the ASUS V8200T5/PURE/64M Nvidia GeForce3 Ti500 Deluxe VGA AGP 64MB DDR for example would have a good price on electromyne.

@all In case I should decide to go gf 3 ti would be a good idea to keep my eyes open in case I can the ti 500 at good price or is the difference between ti 200 and the 500 neglectable for the 97 to 2000 gaming area?

edit @Scali Sorry did not see your post at first. Thx for your input and warning about the GF4MX as well.

Like I said in case I am going for the GF the 4200 ti would be my first choice. Simply because of the price point.

But of course have to admit that price point is rather fickle and it is not impossible to find 4400 and 4600 rather cheap.

I believe the 4600 would be the best of bunch right?

The Ti200 is a lot slower than the Ti500 but you could also just get a normal Geforce 3 which is between the two in both speed and power, If I was going to drop the cash on a GF3 then I would wait for a decently priced Ti500 or normal GF3. (Think of the Ti200 as the budget GF3 card)

The Ti4600 is the best of the Geforce 4 cards and will be priced as such, if you ever see a Ti4800 non SE version then you can also grab that as its a Ti4600 with AGP 8x support.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-11, 12:08:

The Ti4600 is the best of the Geforce 4 cards and will be priced as such, if you ever see a Ti4800 non SE version then you can also grab that as its a Ti4600 with AGP 8x support.

A word of caution about 8x GeForce 4 Ti cards.

While these are generally very nice, they need 4x.xx series drivers. This is normally not an issue, but a few (very few) games don't like those. Need for Speed: High Stakes is one such example, and it needs 30.82 drivers in order to run correctly. Some later drivers may work too, but they have compatibility issues with other games.

Yes, to be clear: the GeForce3 was originally introduced as just the 'GeForce3'... They later introduced the two Ti-models... The Ti200 sits below the original GF3, and the Ti500 above it.
Aside from differences in speed, the three cards use the same GPU, so they are functionally identical in terms of supported features, drivers etc.

Scali wrote on 2023-05-11, 12:07:

I believe a Ti500 is about 20-30% faster than a Ti200, depending on the exact game and settings you run at. So it's not going to […]
Show full quote

predator_085 wrote on 2023-05-11, 12:02:

@all In case I should decide to go gf 3 ti would be a good idea to keep my eyes open in case I can the ti 500 at good price or is the difference between ti 200 and the 500 neglectable for the 97 to 2000 gaming area?

I believe a Ti500 is about 20-30% faster than a Ti200, depending on the exact game and settings you run at.
So it's not going to make a world of difference, but it may just allow you to run a game at a slightly higher resolution with the same framerate.

The difference between a Ti4200 and a Ti4600 is also around 20%-30%.
A Ti4200 in turn is some 5-10% faster than a GF3Ti500, again depending on the exact game and settings.

Depends on the model too, the Ti4200 128mb isn't faster than the Ti500 in real world use until you really start hitting high resolutions and hitting newer DX8 games due to its low stock clocks.
The Ti4200 64Mb model is the one you want, it can scale exceptionally with overclocking you can up the clocks to Ti4600 speeds at which point it'll trash pretty much anything. (The 128MB model should be avoided, it doesnt overclock as well as the 64Mb model due to shit memory ICs)

I have an Inno 3D Ti4200 64MB and that thing can pull some crazy clocks, have had it higher than the Ti4600 clocks, its a great card but you really do need a good base system to feed it, the Ti500 doesnt require an amazing base system to reach its potential. This might be something to consider.

Scali wrote on 2023-05-11, 12:15:

Yes, to be clear: the GeForce3 was originally introduced as just the 'GeForce3'... They later introduced the two Ti-models... The Ti200 sits below the original GF3, and the Ti500 above it.
Aside from differences in speed, the three cards use the same GPU, so they are functionally identical in terms of supported features, drivers etc.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes going for the original Gf3 might also be an option. Have not seen any for sale in the wild yet. But in case I find some at a decent price it would be a option as well.

@Trashpanda It is really a valid point that you mention the base system.

I am not sure if my planned specs can be seen as awesome. According to my research it should offer plenty of power for 97 to 2000 games. CPU wise I am aiming for a NewCastle based Athlon64 3400 like recommended in my other thread.

Another thing to consider is that I am going to play most of the games that are older than the GF 3 or G4 themselves. I am going to play on futuristic hardware so to speak. So for the ancient retro stuff, I do not need the best of the best for the GF 3 or GF 4 gen.

But on the other hand, it would be that bad to have a decent system by GF 3 or GF 4 standards in case I get interested in playing some more "modern" retro stuff.

The system specs you list are overkill for Win98se and the games youll play with such a setup, so youll be fine grabbing either a GF3 or GF4 Ti4200 64MB card or even a Ti4400/4600, just avoid the 128Mb Ti4200.

Grab what suits your budget and most importantly love and enjoy your build, people tend to get too bogged down in the building and forget to actually enjoy the system.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-11, 13:23:

The system specs you list are overkill for Win98se and the games youll play with such a setup, so youll be fine grabbing either a GF3 or GF4 Ti4200 64MB card or even a Ti4400/4600, just avoid the 128Mb Ti4200.

Grab what suits your budget and most importantly love and enjoy your build, people tend to get too bogged down in the building and forget to actually enjoy the system.

Yes, that's good advice. Enjoying the build is the most important stuff that's for sure. The only issue is that it can be a bit confusing for a newbie because there are so many options. But you are right I will just grab what suits my budget. Any GF 3 standard model or the gf4 4200/4400/4600 should be alright as long as it fits into the budget.

ps: I need to correct my statement from above. There are some Geforce 3 out in the wild. They are just called different. There are some listings for the 3d prophet 3 from Hercules. The price range is from okish to rather cheap. Elsa also has a standard gf 3f model called gladiac 920.