smtkr wrote on 2023-05-27, 00:58:

I'm not really sure where the discussion about D3D support is coming from. My crusty old memory could be flawed, but I don't remember finding a single D3D game that I couldn't play on my Voodoo5. I'm pretty sure developers expected a large portion of their potential buyers to be running Voodoo cards at the turn of the century and they would have tested their games with 3dfx cards.

That's good point. I have no contemporary memories about that topic never had 3dfx card back then. That's the reason I want to have such system now to to make this childhood dream a reality. But I have studied many contempory reviews of the 3dfx cards though and really bad D3D support was never mentioned as negative aspect in these reviews.

That does not mean that it is not true and was just overlooked by the reviewers back then.

Still an interesting observation though because I have never heard such complaints of the Vodoo cards. The more common place complaints abou the vodoo cards are are lack 32 bit color and the missing feature of some then standards more modern rendering features.

It makes sense that the vodoo cards works best with their own API glide but that are supposed to be a total letown in direct 3d is news to me.Have never read about it before.

That's really interesting fact and it would influence my choice which 3dfx card to pick siginficantly.

As of now my decision was split 50:50 between the V2 sli or the V3 solution but if the direct 3d quality is really that bad I need lean more towards the more flexible V2 sli solution for Glide games and another direct 3d card for the directx and opengl games.

Voodoo2 drivers had some Direct3D related regressions starting from the DX7 beta drivers in Nov 1999. You'll notice color modulation breaking in certain games (like AVP) as well as some missing textures (like Outrage). Voodoo3's far more versatile and mature with regards to Direct3D support (i.e. some games that only want primary video will work, windowed mode 3d, and the support of all the screen resolutions possible, and buffer effects won't thrash between two cards)

GeForce2 or MX440 and a Voodoo2 SLI is my vote. Actually Ti4200 is the ideal.

As much as I want to like the Voodoo3, it just doesn’t have enough horsepower. Poorly optimized games like Drakan or Blood 2 (and other Lithtech games) experience frequent framerate drops and stuttering. 16MB OF VRAM is in the lower end, also. Even at lower resolutions for these games - which means you need a faster CPU to pick up the slack. A 800MHz P3 for a Voodoo3 3500 overclocked to 203MHz at 1024x768 is about as fast as you can benefit. And that’s 16bit!

You won’t have these problems with GeForce2 - 4. Forget about 2000 and later games on a Voodoo3.

I’m coming from a 60fps perspective; if you don’t mind framerates dipping into the teens, you’ll probably be fine.

However, you might find you don’t appreciate, as someone once said around here; “the poor man’s simulator” as much as you might think. Ironically, it can take a lot of money to simulate this, heh.

But you can have it all! Alternatively, stick with one Voodoo2 (and save some money). When you want to enjoy fluid gameplay and max eye candy, play on the GeForce. When you want to experience what it was like to play later games on underpowered hardware, use the Voodoo2. Plus, even a single card will cover all the early and less stressing 3D games with ease, compatibility, and more power than necessary.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-27, 05:02:

By the time of VSA100 3DFX knew that Glide as an API was dead so naturally the VSA chips had the best D3D support of all the 3DFX chips, the earlier 3DFX chips however treat D3D as more of an afterthought and at times you can spend more time switching drivers trying to find a version that is compatible than you do actually playing the game. The newer 3DFX drivers are actually worse in both performance and compatibility than the older driver versions for cards before the Voodoo4, though nVidia has similar issues with drivers.

citation needed

Garrett W wrote on 2023-05-27, 13:44:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-27, 05:02:

By the time of VSA100 3DFX knew that Glide as an API was dead so naturally the VSA chips had the best D3D support of all the 3DFX chips, the earlier 3DFX chips however treat D3D as more of an afterthought and at times you can spend more time switching drivers trying to find a version that is compatible than you do actually playing the game. The newer 3DFX drivers are actually worse in both performance and compatibility than the older driver versions for cards before the Voodoo4, though nVidia has similar issues with drivers.

citation needed

Sigh only people with no valid counter arguments say such silly things, google is your friend here and can give you all the citation jollies you want.

Having lived through the 3DFX era and used numerous 3DFX setups the voodoo3 is a pariah and even in the day it was disliked for being less than it should have been.

Being 2 years late to the market was likely a huge contributing factor to 3DFX failing, had it made it to market in 97 it would have been amazing.

OP now has plenty to think about and research, whatever they choose I hope they enjoy it and it starts a fun journey for them into bigger builds.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-05-26, 06:44:

What do I mean with most flexibility? I am looking for system that offers a very good compability for every glide game but i also want to play Direct 3d games in a good quality.

Then you pretty much need the voodoo2. It is more compatible than voodoo3 thats for sure. As for the 2D card? I would get a GF2 MX, cheap and with old drivers has excellent compatibility with D3D games from this era as well. A Savage4 works pretty well too.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-27, 13:57:

Sigh only people with no valid counter arguments say such silly things, google is your friend here and can give you all the citation jollies you want.

You've made a claim that a number of people have questioned, me included. You have provided zero evidence for said claim. Instead you've offered us personal thoughts, backhanded attacks to my and other posters' credibility and more vague, urban legend-like trivia that are meant to somehow show us what a terrible product the Voodoo 3 was in what sounds to me like a case of revisionism. I'm not sure what this personal vendetta against 3Dfx and especially the Voodoo 3 is all about nor is it clear to me why it makes you so hostile in an otherwise very calm thread.

If you have something to say and can back it up, then do so, instead of telling to just google it.

Garrett W wrote on 2023-05-27, 14:10:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-27, 13:57:

Sigh only people with no valid counter arguments say such silly things, google is your friend here and can give you all the citation jollies you want.

You've made a claim that a number of people have questioned, me included. You have provided zero evidence for said claim. Instead you've offered us personal thoughts, backhanded attacks to my and other posters' credibility and more vague, urban legend-like trivia that are meant to somehow show us what a terrible product the Voodoo 3 was in what sounds to me like a case of revisionism. I'm not sure what this personal vendetta against 3Dfx and especially the Voodoo 3 is all about nor is it clear to me why it makes you so hostile in an otherwise very calm thread.

If you have something to say and can back it up, then do so, instead of telling to just google it.

You are reading way more into this than you should be especially in regards to personal attacks.

If you have an issue with me you can send your complaints to the relevant authority.

Otherwise I’m done with you here.

Voodoo3 cards aren't bad overall, having excellent optimizations in their drivers.

Problem is that they were released when competitors were offering more features and over the time, 16-bit color depth (with dithering) and the 256x256 texture limitation became a real disadvantage.

To the OP: As I mentioned on the previous thread, the best one for compatibility is the Voodoo2. Like the others mentioned here, it is also the most flexible one, allowing you to use any primary video card of your choice.

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-27, 19:08:

You are reading way more into this than you should be especially in regards to personal attacks. […]
Show full quote

Garrett W wrote on 2023-05-27, 14:10:

TrashPanda wrote on 2023-05-27, 13:57:

Sigh only people with no valid counter arguments say such silly things, google is your friend here and can give you all the citation jollies you want.

You've made a claim that a number of people have questioned, me included. You have provided zero evidence for said claim. Instead you've offered us personal thoughts, backhanded attacks to my and other posters' credibility and more vague, urban legend-like trivia that are meant to somehow show us what a terrible product the Voodoo 3 was in what sounds to me like a case of revisionism. I'm not sure what this personal vendetta against 3Dfx and especially the Voodoo 3 is all about nor is it clear to me why it makes you so hostile in an otherwise very calm thread.

If you have something to say and can back it up, then do so, instead of telling to just google it.

You are reading way more into this than you should be especially in regards to personal attacks.

If you have an issue with me you can send your complaints to the relevant authority.

Otherwise I’m done with you here.

If you provide examples than the conversation evolves and gets more interesting for everyone. Otherwise if it sounds like a false claim I am not going to take time to investigate it further because debunking is a lot of work and not all that much fun. Getting really nuanced on a topic is really fun.

kolderman wrote on 2023-05-27, 14:01:

retep_110 wrote on 2023-05-26, 06:44:

What do I mean with most flexibility? I am looking for system that offers a very good compability for every glide game but i also want to play Direct 3d games in a good quality.

Then you pretty much need the voodoo2. It is more compatible than voodoo3 thats for sure. As for the 2D card? I would get a GF2 MX, cheap and with old drivers has excellent compatibility with D3D games from this era as well. A Savage4 works pretty well too.

thanks a lot for the info. I have not considered into the savage 4 yet but will look into it as well.

@all Thanks again for the other infos as well. Got many valluable infos. I will think about again before making my final decision.

After some more research I have made my final decision. I will go with the V2 way. First with single Vodoo 2 card and after saving some more money with a second one to make a SLI system a reality. I would not there is anything particular wrong with a Voodoo. 3 but Voodoo. 2 System seems to more flexible and exactly what I am looking for. I also checked out the Glide games I am mostly interested in and most of them are from the vodoo 2 area so the V2 would be the perfect gaming partner.

For pure dirext and open gl gaming dedicated direct 3d card is the best way to anyway.

I have another question in that regard. So far I was only considering getting gf2 or maybe radeon 7200 or radeon 8500 card but some people here also montioned the gf3 and 4 cards.

Which also sounds not uninteresting. Which card would be the most powerful /reasonable card to use together with pentium 3 800mhz? Would this the gf3 or gf4 already?

I also got another question about SLI

Do you need 2 Voodoo. from the same manufacturer or is it ok if I use 2 vodoo 8mb cards from different vendors?

The GeForce4 and Radeon 8500 are the most powerful cards you're considering. If you want maximum performance, don't care about price, and full DirectX 8.1 while compatibility takes somewhat of a back seat - The Radeon 8500. If you want most of the performance and balance between cost, old and new, the Ti4200. However, an MX440 will get you 70 - 80% of the performance for 50% of the cost of Ti4200 and 30% of the cost of an 8500. These are eBay prices - you may be able to do better offline, but if you can't get a hold of a pristine MX440 for $30 maximum with shipping on eBay, these are indeed the dark times. I just bought one last week for $26 shipped (some would say even that is on the high side). That means more money for the Voodoo2 SLI. I'd skip looking at the Geforce3 and 2 because there's better (Ti4200 against the Geforce3 or MX440 against the GeForce2) for less money. But if you get an unbelievable deal on a Ti500 or GeForce2 Ultra (Good luck!), go for it. If you consider the MX440, watch out for the MX440 SE/8x - its memory bus is often cut in half to 64bit.

Here's a video from Phil. It's comparing the MX460, but if you overclock the MX440 just a little bit, you're there performance wise. The main interest is the comparisons between all of the cards you're considering:
https://youtu.be/_qWvc94DjJE

An additional note - a trap you want to avoid is designing a system around "one game." For example, passing on GeForce cards because the stars don't render in Thief 2. Or passing on the Radeon 8500 because Shadows of the Empire fog is non-existent (and Thief 2 fog, for that matter). Every card has some kind of quirk, but you can maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses in combination with the Voodoo2. With this in mind, no system can do it all - live with or workaround the compromises or get a 2nd system.

Also, if you plan on playing DOS games (even if not dropping down into MS-DOS mode), you'll do better with any of the GeForce (or MX) cards versus any ATI.

Finally, you can use the FastVoodoo2 driver v4.6 to mix Voodoo2 manufacturers. Aesthetically speaking, I would not do this, but if there's no option (or you don't care), it can be done and has been done by a number of folks around here.
https://3dfxarchive.com/voodoo2.htm

retep_110 wrote on 2023-05-28, 17:30:

After some more research I have made my final decision. I will go with the V2 way. First with single Vodoo 2 card and after s […]
Show full quote

After some more research I have made my final decision. I will go with the V2 way. First with single Vodoo 2 card and after saving some more money with a second one to make a SLI system a reality. I would not there is anything particular wrong with a Vodoo 3 but Vodoo 2 System seems to more flexible and exactly what I am looking for. I also checked out the Glide games I am mostly interested in and most of them are from the vodoo 2 area so the V2 would be the perfect gaming partner.

For pure dirext and open gl gaming dedicated direct 3d card is the best way to anyway.

I have another question in that regard. So far I was only considering getting gf2 or maybe radeon 7200 or radeon 8500 card but some people here also montioned the gf3 and 4 cards.

Which also sounds not uninteresting. Which card would be the most powerful /reasonable card to use together with pentium 3 800mhz? Would this the gf3 or gf4 already?

I also got another question about SLI

Do you need 2 vodoo cards from the same manufacturer or is it ok if I use 2 vodoo 8mb cards from different vendors?

Sorry, but I cannot stand it anymore.
The name is Voodoo. with 2 times double o.
You always write Vodoo, where every reply contains Voodoo, the later one is correct.

Meatball wrote on 2023-05-28, 21:31:

The GeForce4 and Radeon 8500 are the most powerful cards you're considering. If you want maximum performance, don't care about […]
Show full quote

The GeForce4 and Radeon 8500 are the most powerful cards you're considering. If you want maximum performance, don't care about price, and full DirectX 8.1 while compatibility takes somewhat of a back seat - The Radeon 8500. If you want most of the performance and balance between cost, old and new, the Ti4200. However, an MX440 will get you 70 - 80% of the performance for 50% of the cost of Ti4200 and 30% of the cost of an 8500. These are eBay prices - you may be able to do better offline, but if you can't get a hold of a pristine MX440 for $30 maximum with shipping on eBay, these are indeed the dark times. I just bought one last week for $26 shipped (some would say even that is on the high side). That means more money for the Voodoo2 SLI. I'd skip looking at the Geforce3 and 2 because there's better (Ti4200 against the Geforce3 or MX440 against the GeForce2) for less money. But if you get an unbelievable deal on a Ti500 or GeForce2 Ultra (Good luck!), go for it. If you consider the MX440, watch out for the MX440 SE/8x - its memory bus is often cut in half to 64bit.

Here's a video from Phil. It's comparing the MX460, but if you overclock the MX440 just a little bit, you're there performance wise. The main interest is the comparisons between all of the cards you're considering:
https://youtu.be/_qWvc94DjJE

An additional note - a trap you want to avoid is designing a system around "one game." For example, passing on GeForce cards because the stars don't render in Thief 2. Or passing on the Radeon 8500 because Shadows of the Empire fog is non-existent (and Thief 2 fog, for that matter). Every card has some kind of quirk, but you can maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses in combination with the Voodoo2. With this in mind, no system can do it all - live with or workaround the compromises or get a 2nd system.

Also, if you plan on playing DOS games (even if not dropping down into MS-DOS mode), you'll do better with any of the GeForce (or MX) cards versus any ATI.

Finally, you can use the FastVoodoo2 driver v4.6 to mix Voodoo2 manufacturers. Aesthetically speaking, I would not do this, but if there's no option (or you don't care), it can be done and has been done by a number of folks around here.
https://3dfxarchive.com/voodoo2.htm

Thanks for the detailed answer. I am going to check out the video from Phil. It is also a good point to avoid the trap building my system just around one game. I almost fell for it already to be honest. Radeon cards have been my second choice because they lack of some legacy features for old games. at the same time I ignored the strengh of the Ati cards. I really need to try to maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of main direct 3d card in combination with the Voodoo2.

I am researching about the matter from that point of view now with fresh eye.

Also a big thanks for mentioning the MX440. Also nice to hear about more potential cards to consider. The card was not on my radar unitl now but I will look into it.

@CoffeeOne Point taken. The error ist going to happen again.

CoffeeOne wrote on 2023-05-28, 21:46:

Sorry, but I cannot stand it anymore.
The name is Voodoo. with 2 times double o.
You always write Vodoo, where every reply contains Voodoo, the later one is correct.

i'd take Vodoo over VooDoo , tbh

Hello guys got another Voodoo 2 question. Is Miro Hiscore a decent brand for V2 card and there any real world peformance advantages considering a 12mb Voodoo 2 card over the 8mb version?

So far I have only considered getting 2 8mb Voodoo 2 cards but after browsing around and looking for V2 cards I have seen the chance the also get a V2 12mb at decent price if you are patient and lucky enough. It might take longer though than going for the 8mb variant

Because these bargains only pop up from time to time. I was too for the 12mb Miro Highscore to be honest but maybe something similar will pop up again. Hence the question for the Miro Highscore

But woul the wait be worth it? Or is the difference rather insignificant and the 8mb variant is more than enough?

What do the voodoo 2 sli guys here think about that matter?

Edit : My bad. Have to admit that I should have checked the forum before asking the 8mb vs 12 mb part. There was thread about this topic already on the firs page.

The anwers were not very satisfactory though.

But if I get the answers the right the difference is not that big. Did I get this right?

The only advantage of having 12 MB over 8 MB is that there will be 4 MB instead of 2 MB per TMU (Texture Mapping Unit) for storing textures. Otherwise, performance will be the same.

As for the Miro Highscore Voodoo2, does it come with the required passthrough cable? If so, I say that go for it given the opportunity. It was a manufacturer from Germany.

For SLI, it is recommended to have both Voodoo2 cards with the same amount of memory and coming from the same manufacturer. If that isn't the case, you would need special drivers for mismatched SLI support, and those aren't available in DOS.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-05-31, 14:01:

The only advantage of having 12 MB over 8 MB is that there will be 4 MB instead of 2 MB per TMU (Texture Mapping Unit) for storing textures. Otherwise, performance will be the same.

As for the Miro Highscore Voodoo2, does it come with the required passthrough cable? If so, I say that go for it given the opportunity. It was a manufacturer from Germany.

For SLI, it is recommended to have both Voodoo2 cards with the same amount of memory and coming from the same manufacturer. If that isn't the case, you would need special drivers for mismatched SLI support, and those aren't available in DOS.

Thx for the info. good to know that I have to look for cards from the same vendor to make my SLI plans a reality. Unfortunately I come to late to get the Miro Highscore Voodoo2 card I was refering to in the post above. The cable was included by the way.

I do not have personal experience with 8MB V2 cards, but considering that the 12MB version already struggles with textures in some games even from 1998 (Unreal shows off texture thrashing) and it struggles even worse in SLI at 1024x768, I'd urge you to rethink your approach.

Miro were among the better manufacturers around, they even made "special" 3Dfx cards (their Voodoo 1 with 6MB was somewhat legendary).