ATI Mach 64 or Matrox Mystique to push it into 1995 would be an option?

Edit:
Mach 64 = 1994
Mystique = 1996

Minutemanqvs wrote on 2024-01-23, 20:05:

ATI Mach 64 or Matrox Mystique to push it into 1995 would be an option? […]
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ATI Mach 64 or Matrox Mystique to push it into 1995 would be an option?

Edit:
Mach 64 = 1994
Mystique = 1996

I have a Mach64 8mb and a Mach32 lying around. The Mach64 was in the 486. I am trying to be as period correct as I can with sound and video, with S3 chips being the most ubiquitous. The Mach64 should be in a Pentium 1 of some sort. I am also working on a little project with a period correct 486 system and will be taking notes.

I use a Tseng ET6000 in my 486. 1996 ish release. I think you can get them in 2MB/4MB/8MB configurations.
Not sure on the price as I got mine in busted machine that I harvested from a recycle pile.
But it's a nice fast little card, I should emphasize that mine is PCI not VLB.

ARK Logic ARK1000PV 1MB or 2MB versions. VBE 1.2. Great card for DOS.

The Mach 64 is definitely period correct, it's whats onboard my DX2/66
Osbone 486 DX2 66 VL-Bus (My 1st PC ever)

Not saying it's the fastest or most compatible card in dos but it doesn't give me any trouble either.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-01-24, 00:34:

The Mach 64 is definitely period correct, it's whats onboard my DX2/66
Osbone 486 DX2 66 VL-Bus (My 1st PC ever)

Not saying it's the fastest or most compatible card in dos but it doesn't give me any trouble either.

The one I have is an 8mb 3d variant from 1997, a 3d Rage II. It is a placeholder until I can get a Diamond S3-based card. I have been using it in the interim because it uses Mach64 Windows 3.x drivers.

The sound card I recently acquired is a Diamond branded, OPL3/Crystal/ Opti card and very similar to the first sound card I ever had. I had an AWE32 CT2760 in the 486 but moved it to a Pentium III using Moslo Deluxe on command.com to emulate a Pentium 166 MMX Windows 95 system. S3 cards were extremely common in the era I am shooting for and have good DOS compatibility. I am seeking a Diamond branded (for thematic purposes, which is why I was also hoping to find a Diamond ISA modem which can work in DOS/Win 3.1,) S3 chipset video card to complement the sound card. I am hoping to get the community's opinion on which S3 chipset is the best one, circa 1992 - 1994. I have found a few Diamond S3-based cards in a similar price range: vision864, vision868, vision964, and Trio64 based cards. I don't which of those is "the best" for compatibility and the best color and performance.

Out of interest: what are you doing in DOS that uses more than 1MB? In Windows 3.x it's a no-brainer of course, but outside of Windows little else I'm aware of apart from specialist applications like AutoCAD - which natively supports the Weitek GPU on the Viper and so can access all its VRAM. Some chips do interleaving with 2MB (Tseng ET4000W32P springs to mind), but the S3 chips you're looking at don't.

In any event, it's debatable how anything over 1MB is period correct for 1994. Yes, a lot of cards support it, but actually having that second MB populated is very rare. I have a Miro Crystal 24S card with S3 928 and 3MB of VRAM. It's a huge full-length monster and would have cost more than an entire average PC when it came out in 1994. Now, I don't care as much about period correctness, so I love the beast, but it's not something you'd find in a bog standard 486DX2/66, and in DOS it's also relatively slow, mainly due to VRAM performing worse than DRAM without specific support for its features (i.e. a Windows driver) - a Cirrus Logic GD5428 with 1MB DRAM (which is a very typical 1994 card) would run rings around it.

That said, I'm very curious what you're using that extra MB for in DOS, it's just the sort of thing I'd like to throw at my old beasts 😉

Just to double check, and if you haven't already, it might be good to test the cards on other systems as well. Two cards sold as functioning(?) that neither don't POST on the system might also suggest a problem or an incompatibility with the motherboard?

dionb wrote on 2024-01-24, 23:39:

Out of interest: what are you doing in DOS that uses more than 1MB? In Windows 3.x it's a no-brainer of course, but outside of Windows little else I'm aware of apart from specialist applications like AutoCAD - which natively supports the Weitek GPU on the Viper and so can access all its VRAM. Some chips do interleaving with 2MB (Tseng ET4000W32P springs to mind), but the S3 chips you're looking at don't.

In any event, it's debatable how anything over 1MB is period correct for 1994. Yes, a lot of cards support it, but actually having that second MB populated is very rare. I have a Miro Crystal 24S card with S3 928 and 3MB of VRAM. It's a huge full-length monster and would have cost more than an entire average PC when it came out in 1994. Now, I don't care as much about period correctness, so I love the beast, but it's not something you'd find in a bog standard 486DX2/66, and in DOS it's also relatively slow, mainly due to VRAM performing worse than DRAM without specific support for its features (i.e. a Windows driver) - a Cirrus Logic GD5428 with 1MB DRAM (which is a very typical 1994 card) would run rings around it.

That said, I'm very curious what you're using that extra MB for in DOS, it's just the sort of thing I'd like to throw at my old beasts 😉

I just want the "best" and most upgraded version of the card.

clb wrote on 2024-01-25, 00:02:

Just to double check, and if you haven't already, it might be good to test the cards on other systems as well. Two cards sold as functioning(?) that neither don't POST on the system might also suggest a problem or an incompatibility with the motherboard?

I did not check them in another system, though the ATI cards I already had are both working, and the Diamond Viper I bought on impulse is working. The first card shows no picture, so I am assuming a bad component or trace somewhere. The second card is giving a "no video card detected" beep code, so I am assuming that it is simply dead. The first seller apologized and refunded me immediately, and the second seller is being weird about it, so I went through official ebay options to handle that refund. I have received bad parts here and there over the years. Two in a row is just the bad luck of it. The Viper was purchased first (arrived second,) and is working fine. I would stick with that if it wasn't for the pitifully low memory in DOS. If the motherboard supported it, I would use it in tandem with a DOS card and a VGA switch as a Windows card.

At any rate, I went with another Trio64. It was recommended by someone in another thread, has 2mb, and the seller provided screenshots of it working. It is unfortunate that I couldn't get the information I was seeking about which S3 chip is "the best," though because these parts are old and I received bad parts and have had parts die here and there over the years, I may try to grab alternative cards as backups, overtime.

dionb makes a very good point, there isn't really any DOS game that is going to make use of more video memory.
A faster card with less ram would make more sense than a slower card with ram that you can't really utilize.
Now if you are using Win 3.1 or something and need a high resolution desktop for a specific reason I can see that being a concern.
I used the Tseng in my PC as it was simply the fasted PCI 2D card that I own. It was released about a year after my CPU, so it's conceivable that one would have used it.
It actually came from another 486 machine with a Dx4-100.

The readme file of the game Little Big Adventure mentions a graphics card of 2Mb in october 1994 as a dream configuration but it's for a Pentium 100. They recommend a 486 dx2-66 with a 1Mb graphics card in VLB or PCI. The game is in 640*480 in dos. They also list graphics cards that are supported by the game.

1REQUIREMENTS:
2
3Little Big Adventure (LBA) requires:
4
5A 486 with a single speed CD-ROM drive
64 MB of memory
7A VESA compliant SVGA card with 512 KB of RAM
8
9
10The Recommended Configuration is:
11
12486DX2 - 66 Mhz with local bus (VESA or PCI for example)
13Double speed CD-ROM drive
14Local bus SVGA card with 1 MB of RAM
158 MB of memory
16Sound Blaster 16 (Stereo 16 bits Sound FX + FM Music)
17
18
19The current "Dream" configuration would be:
20
21Pentium 100 Mhz
22Quad speed CD-ROM drive
23PCI Local bus SVGA card with 2 MB of RAM
2417 inch monitor
258 MB of memory
26Sound Blaster AWE32 (Stereo 16 bits Sound FX + Midi Music)
27Hi-Fi Power Stereo Amplifier + Speakers

That's some bad luck. I've gotten almost all of my video cards from junk piles in recycle centers, having been squished and scraped around for months, and afaicr all but one out of a few dozen has worked.

All of my eBay purchases have also worked with no issues.

Maybe just try again? Besides, as others have said, I also would start to suspect compatibility problems with your motherboard after two failed attempts like that.

Counted up my database, I have 84 (S)VGA adapters in my lab, of which I think maybe ~50-60 have come to me from eBay. Out of my cards, 5 don't POST. So maybe that's a 10% failure rate?

Several of my cards have seating issues, this ATI 28800-6 I am now working on only booted on the third reseat. (I think my mobo ISA & PCI slots are getting worn down by now)

I know that's super rough and loaded with assumptions and anecdotal, though just to share.

Jasin Natael wrote on 2024-01-25, 14:59:

dionb makes a very good point, there isn't really any DOS game that is going to make use of more video memory. A faster card wi […]
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dionb makes a very good point, there isn't really any DOS game that is going to make use of more video memory.
A faster card with less ram would make more sense than a slower card with ram that you can't really utilize.
Now if you are using Win 3.1 or something and need a high resolution desktop for a specific reason I can see that being a concern.
I used the Tseng in my PC as it was simply the fasted PCI 2D card that I own. It was released about a year after my CPU, so it's conceivable that one would have used it.
It actually came from another 486 machine with a Dx4-100.

I did forget to mention that I will be using WfW 3.11 on my 486. I am planning on using it for word processing and for midi-music creation as if I went back in time to 1994. The 2mb will definitely help me when using Windows. If the 2mb Viper wasn't a crappy card for DOS, I would have probably stuck with that. My P3s have an option in the bios to choose which slot to look to first for video, so I am wondering if I can use it alongside another card. My SD-to-IDE P3 has different SD cards with different setups, one with MS-DOS and WfW 3.11. I will keep the card in my collection, though it would be cool to find a use for it.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-25, 17:52:

That's some bad luck. I've gotten almost all of my video cards from junk piles in recycle centers, having been squished and scraped around for months, and afaicr all but one out of a few dozen has worked.

All of my eBay purchases have also worked with no issues.

Maybe just try again? Besides, as others have said, I also would start to suspect compatibility problems with your motherboard after two failed attempts like that.

Out of three ebay cards purchased this month, the Viper works but the others do not. My ATI cards do work. I just think that I had bad luck with the vision864 and Trio64 cards. The one thing not period correct is the motherboard, a Tomato 4dps. Getting sound, video, and CPU period correct is all I need for this particular project. I haven't heard of any S3 cards not working with this board due to an incompatibility issue, though I suppose it is possible.

clb wrote on 2024-01-25, 17:59:

Counted up my database, I have 84 (S)VGA adapters in my lab, of which I think maybe ~50-60 have come to me from eBay. Out of my cards, 5 don't POST. So maybe that's a 10% failure rate?

Several of my cards have seating issues, this ATI 28800-6 I am now working on only booted on the third reseat. (I think my mobo ISA & PCI slots are getting worn down by now)

I know that's super rough and loaded with assumptions and anecdotal, though just to share.

As all of these parts age and get more and more use, failures are bound to happen. It is becoming a crapshoot. Eventually, 86box, dosbox, or similar solutions will probably become the only solutions.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-25, 18:15:

[...]

I did forget to mention that I will be using WfW 3.11 on my 486. I am planning on using it for word processing and for midi-music creation as if I went back in time to 1994. The 2mb will definitely help me when using Windows.

Yes, then the added value is clear. In that case, keep a lookout for Miro high-end cards. You can find 2MB, 3MB or 4MB from 1994. The 928 isn't fast, but unlike the split 2D/3D of the Viper at least it's in the same ballpark as the faster cards. Also, look for Tseng ET4000W32P cards, as they not only use the 2MB for extra modes in Windows but the interleave improves DOS and Windows performance. Avoid Cirrus Logic GD542x cards with 2MB, due to crappy integrated RAMDAC the second MB can only be used for a few eye-melting interlaced modes. An interesting option are Trident TGUI9440 cards. They are considered slow, but aren't as bad as some other Trident cards and can use 2MB properly.

In DOS, VESA compatibility is a thing. S3 and Cirrus Logic reign supreme there in this era, with Ark and Trident coming close behind. Tseng, Matrox and ATi are unfortunately a lot worse. That said, don't overestimate the impact of VESA - it's only relevant for SVGA titles and 'bad' support usually means things like choppy scrolling in games that do a lot of scrolling (Commander Keen). If you play a lot of those games, it's highly relevant for you. Otherwise not.

If the 2mb Viper wasn't a crappy card for DOS, I would have probably stuck with that.

What is your exact problem? 512kB would be awful for Windows, but it's enough for 800x600@256 colours, which is the most DOS games use.

My P3s have an option in the bios to choose which slot to look to first for video, so I am wondering if I can use it alongside another card.

That option is only for AGP vs PCI.

On older buses (PCI, VLB, EISA, ISA etc), it's just a matter of whose BIOS gets initialized first. Some cards (Matrox Millennium comes to mind) have a jumper to "Disable VGA", which means disabling VGA BIOS. If your Viper has that option, it will disable the VGA BIOS on the Viper letting you use another card for unaccelerated DOS VGA but allowing drivers to use the accelerator. The challenge there is that you will need to connect a monitor to both the card you use for VGA and to the card with VGA disabled you want to use in Windows.

My SD-to-IDE P3 has different SD cards with different setups, one with MS-DOS and WfW 3.11. I will keep the card in my collection, though it would be cool to find a use for it.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-01-25, 17:52:

That's some bad luck. I've gotten almost all of my video cards from junk piles in recycle centers, having been squished and scraped around for months, and afaicr all but one out of a few dozen has worked.

All of my eBay purchases have also worked with no issues.

Maybe just try again? Besides, as others have said, I also would start to suspect compatibility problems with your motherboard after two failed attempts like that.

Out of three ebay cards purchased this month, the Viper works but the others do not. My ATI cards do work. I just think that I had bad luck with the vision864 and Trio64 cards. The one thing not period correct is the motherboard, a Tomato 4dps. Getting sound, video, and CPU period correct is all I need for this particular project. I haven't heard of any S3 cards not working with this board due to an incompatibility issue, though I suppose it is possible. [/quote]
In case of doubt, stick the cards into your P3 to see if they work there. I'd agree though that a PCI VGA card from the same era as the motherboard is not likely to have compatibility issues.

Your motherboard is relevant, it's a PCI+ISA board with no VLB, which is unusual for 486 boards. That means we needdn't suggest VLB cards...

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-23, 13:47:

Greetings, […]
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Greetings,

I purchased a Diamond Stealth based on the vision864 for my 486 to keep it period correct (I have an 8mb 3d Rage of some sort in there, currently.) It arrived and would produce no video and no beep codes. The seller apologized and let me keep it and refunded my money. I then ordered a Diamond Trio64-based card. It arrived and would produce no video and gave a "no video card detected" beep code. This is the first time I have had this much bad luck with vintage parts. A Diamond Viper I regret buying on impulse works just fine, but has only 512k of memory in DOS, and my goal is 2mb of memory in DOS. I don't know anything about diagnosing and repairing cards, though I am assuming some soldering is needed for the Trio64 and that perhaps the bios is corrupted on the vision864 since there are no beep codes.

Prices of these cards are rising and there are fewer of them showing up in searches. My 486 has been waiting for a replacement card for around three+ weeks. I am seeing a few options for Diamond cards from 1994 in the same and decent price range. For a 486DX2/66 w/ 16mb RAM, what chip would be recommended for the best DOS experience? I am going to see if I can use whatever card I finally end up with that works in tandem with the Viper (for Windows) with a VGA switch, if that can even work in this system. If not, I am hoping for decent DOS and Windows 3.x usage and performance. I am seeing the Trio64, vision864, and vision868 based cards. I see a vision968, but that one might be from 1995.

Many thanks!
Scythifuge

Greetings!
so you are in search of a PCI graphics card ....
And you purchased a "Diamond Stealth based on the vision864" and a "Diamond Trio64-based card", both do not work, indeed bad luck.
I mean you could ask here the experts and try to make them running(?)
Back to the topic, how serious are you about your period-correctness requirements? So 1995 is too new for your project, 1994 or older is good? Is it correct?

Most Trio64 card were manufactored in 1995, also S3 868 and 968. I have a Spea PCI with a 868 chip and 40ns EDO RAM, which has a date-code of the chips from late 1995, so my 868 card might even be from 1996.
But you might be right the first series of Diamond Stealth 64 DRAM T might be from late 1994, but they were produced until 1996, a quick ebay search confirmed that.
What is the Bios revision your Stealth 64 DRAM T? Picture?
So for sticking to S3 and PCI and 1994, better search only for S3 928 VRAM cards (most likely not great in pure DOS either) or early S3 864 cards.
Because S3 Trio64 and S3 864 / 964 cards have a 64bit bus to the DRAM, 2MB RAM absolutely make sense. On the other hand with 1MB only, you still will have the same speed in Doom (or similar Dos apps).
But still crippling the 64bit memory interface of those cards to 32bit hurts, so yes 2MB it should be 😀

To make it worse, later you wrote:
"I am hoping to get the community's opinion on which S3 chipset is the best one, circa 1992 - 1994"
That is just weird. 1992 is even very early for Vesa Local Bus. But I am afraid this was no joke.

What I am trying to say, since you talk about PCI graphic cards: Why you just don't buy some more cheap Trio64 cards, even when they are from 1995?

On the other hand, you confirmed that your 486 board is not period correct for your project, I assume it is from 1996. So most likely your graphics card "8mb 3d Rage of some sort" is a good match.
But what is it exactly? Rage II? Rage II+? Rage Pro Turbo? Picture? Exact type? My Rage Pro Turbo PCI with 4MB is from 1997. But since you have a 8MB card it could be newer.

dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 19:36:

Also, look for Tseng ET4000W32P cards, as they not only use the 2MB for extra modes in Windows but the interleave improves DOS and Windows performance. Avoid Cirrus Logic GD542x cards with 2MB, due to crappy integrated RAMDAC the second MB can only be used for a few eye-melting interlaced modes. An interesting option are Trident TGUI9440 cards. They are considered slow, but aren't as bad as some other Trident cards and can use 2MB properly.
....

I agree with the 2MB for a ET4000W32p, but still gain in DOS will be very small, in benchmarks the throughput will be high, but no to very little gain in Doom (and others ....)
Fully agree with Cirrus 542x cards, the second MB does not make sense.
But fully disagree with your statement about TGUI9440 cards. 2MB are completely useless, too, at least for my VLB 9440 card.
What is better with 2MB on a Trident 9440 card?
Re: Vesa Local Bus graphics card - upgrade video memory

Have you cleaned the PCI connector of the cards that didn’t work? I’ve had many ISA, VLB and PCI cards from that era that just needed a wipe with some cleaning alcohol before they would work 😀.

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-25, 20:16:

I agree with the 2MB for a ET4000W32p, but still gain in DOS will be very small, in benchmarks the throughput will be high, but […]
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dionb wrote on 2024-01-25, 19:36:

Also, look for Tseng ET4000W32P cards, as they not only use the 2MB for extra modes in Windows but the interleave improves DOS and Windows performance. Avoid Cirrus Logic GD542x cards with 2MB, due to crappy integrated RAMDAC the second MB can only be used for a few eye-melting interlaced modes. An interesting option are Trident TGUI9440 cards. They are considered slow, but aren't as bad as some other Trident cards and can use 2MB properly.
....

I agree with the 2MB for a ET4000W32p, but still gain in DOS will be very small, in benchmarks the throughput will be high, but no to very little gain in Doom (and others ....)
Fully agree with Cirrus 542x cards, the second MB does not make sense.
But fully disagree with your statement about TGUI9440 cards. 2MB are completely useless, too, at least for my VLB 9440 card.
What is better with 2MB on a Trident 9440 card?
Re: Vesa Local Bus graphics card - upgrade video memory

According to the feature sheet, the TGUI9440-2 / TGUI9440-R should already allow 1024x768@16b or 800x600@24b with 2MB. Can't confirm that from personal experiece, but can confirm that the TGUI9440AGi PCI will use 2MB properly.

That was under Linux. I strongly suspect your bad experiences are more due to poor Win98 support for this 1994 card than the card actually not being able to do it.