I feel your pain. I'll try to get the time to try out my SB16 (I have at least 3 that I know of, dunno the model # off the top of my head) + SCB-55 on Dark Forces and see what happens. I also have a Soundscape (long board w/o the daughter card add-on, so I guess it's a S-2000?). So I can mess around.

Ultimately I just got a MPU-401/AT ISA card (cost a butt load) to host my SCB-55 and communicate with my MT-32.

Seems like there just can't be one happy solution for everything.

Might be your pnp soundcards that messes everything up

I'm running dark forces with no problems with my CT1740+DB60XG + GUS Max soundcards

pnp cards seem to have a life of their own 🙁

Well the CT1740 isn't PnP and that's the one giving me the trouble. The newer PnP SB16s work, but don't work right with the DB (stuck notes issue).

Mike 01Hawk wrote:

I feel your pain. I'll try to get the time to try out my SB16 (I have at least 3 that I know of, dunno the model # off the top of my head) + SCB-55 on Dark Forces and see what happens. I also have a Soundscape (long board w/o the daughter card add-on, so I guess it's a S-2000?). So I can mess around.

Ultimately I just got a MPU-401/AT ISA card (cost a butt load) to host my SCB-55 and communicate with my MT-32.

k. Yeah would be cool to know if you get it working.

Yup that's the S-2000 or whatever they called it. Maybe it's just plain "Soundscape". The model number is SS-2016 but the box just said Soundscape. The Elite has the little daughtercard with the MIDI DSP. I have built up a collection of every card except the "elusive" PnP Soundscape (unless that's just the Gateway OPUS card which I do have). The original and the Elite are all that really matter in the end tho. The VIVO cards require EMM386 (yuck) and AudioPCI is cheap junk for the most part.

Seems like there just can't be one happy solution for everything.

You're telling me! This is crazyness. I never would've imagined that SB16 would be such a compatibility nightmare. The newer ones have issues with DBs and PnP, and the oldest models seem to not like DF+DBs. It never ends. It's too bad that Vortex 2 doesn't emulate SB16 because its SBPro emulation is excellent and its DB header just plain works (and sounds beautiful.)

Actually it's even more "too bad" that the Vortex 2 DOS driver does something evil for its emulation that makes some games unstable if I try to use the Soundscape together with it. Soundscape's 16-bit audio is just incredible compared to SB16 and Vortex SBPro in games that actually use 16-bit quality (mod music benefits hugely). If it didn't cause instability, the Vortex would be a great platform for daughtercards.

Swaaye, I mis-spoke! 🙁

It's been so long since I've messed around w/ all my sound card greatness that I forgot the very reason why I was on a hunt for the MPU-401/AT to begin with! I have a VERY peculiar SCB-55 that does NOT work on SB16s!!!!!

That's why I have like 3 SB16s, I thought it was the SB16 card!

I'm looking at a CT1740 right here on my desk... I COULD hook up the DB50xg if you wish and try that out?

Hence:

SB16+DB50xg = Midi Music
Soundscape = Digital Effects

Ahh.. what the heck, I'll try it anyway....screwdriver, where are you?

Eh. 🤣. So much complexity. We may need like personal DOS hardware experience logs and cheat sheets to remember all this nonsense!

Anyway, I've discovered the problem I believe. It's the as-usual shitty Super 7 mobo at work. I put the SCD-15 on my Vortex, which is has worked with before, but DF still doesn't go. I also tried setting the game to GMIDI and to the port of the Soundscape and no go there either. The game does work with native Soundscape synth mode, but it appears there is some sort of conflict at work for MPU-401 General MIDI.

After another Google Groups search episode, I found that the ASUS P5A is quite troublesome for DOS audio emulation (PCI card DOS drivers) too. It seems that, as usual, the Super 7 board is the root of all evil. Why do I mess with Super 7? Yuck.

The question is: what do I do now?! My 440BX board has but one ISA slot. Oh noes! 🙁 I suppose there is always the PPro mobo, but PPro doesn't really have the grunt for SVGA games. Ah well, maybe I'll try it anyway.

It would be interesting to know the DSP versions of the cards that are causing trouble. LucasArts always seemed to have problems with the 16s.

Well swaaye... I put in my Soundscape and my SB16 and had all kinds of config issues... 🤣.. I didn't feel like 're-learning' everything.... I like your thought though... I'm going to create an Excel Spreadsheet with ALL my settings and nonsense... getting old sucks.

But you're setup has inspired me to think some more. I have but two lonely ISA slots available on my Dell GXpro. I'm thinking that this set up would be killer for my needs!!!

ISA Slot 1: Soundscape (for digital effects for those games that support it natively)
ISA Slot 2: SB16 w/ DB50xg (for digital effects and the few games that the DB50xg is king, ie, FF7 and Descent are the only two I can think of off the top of my head)
ISA Slot 3: MPU-401AT w/ SCB-55 (for Sound Canvas music, and also have my MT-32 connected for games that sound lovely on the MT-32, i.e. the first Dune)

It's looking like a majority of the time I'd be rocking a SB16 for effects, and SCB-55 for music, unless of course I could 'upgrade' to the Soundscape

PCI Slot 1: Ethernet Card (if mobo doesn't support it)
PCI Slot 2: Video Card

I'd also like to get a tower configuration cause I believe that'd give me more flexibility. I'd love to get a known name brand such as Dell... but what would be a good MOBO that would fit my needs? I guess it should really start out at the MOBO, and then get a Case to fit that layout, then I could piece meal everything around that... hmmmmm

Yeah the SB16 CT1740 works fine on my Intel "Venus" VS440FX PPro mobo. The ASUS P5A board has some sort of mysterious issue with MPU-401 ports I guess. It just wouldn't work for Dark Forces. It wasn't a problem for Cybermage though.

SCD15 has no problems on the CT1740 either. No stuck notes, missing notes, or wrong notes. According to IMUSE and Diagnose, it has DSP version 4.13.

Let me know what you think of the Soundscape vs. the Roland and Yamaha. It'll be drier for sure (no DSP), but those Ensoniq folks put together a very nice patch set on Soundscape. Elite has a bit different set that some say is better, but really it's more different than better (IMO). DSP effects are also a matter of taste IMO because the "dry" sound can be preferable. I think the Elite has some better quality sounds than the SCD-15 (in that the sound stage is wider and crisper IMO).

I did a little test of sound quality with regards to hosting the SCD-15 DB on a SB16 or my Monster Sound MX300 board. The MX300 should have better analog design than the crappy SB16, but the difference was negligible in reality (at least it wasn't powerfully apparent). I wonder if that MPU-401AT card is the best platform and whether there are other options that don't hurt the output quality.

Running the 3 cards you mentioned shouldn't be all that hard. The MPU-401AT probably has only the MIDI port 330 used? Not a big deal to work around that. Just be sure to reserve the IRQs and DMAs of the ISA cards in the BIOS. Other than hardware resources, the biggest issue is with conflicting drivers/TSRs. For example, the Vortex DOS driver must do some evil stuff because it's unstable when used alongside the Ensoniq in some games (Crusader so far). It seems to mess with Origin's DOS extender (I'm guessing). Soundscape doesn't even use any TSRs or drivers so this was surprising.

As far as I remember DF supports the Soundscape natively. So in my personal memory DF with an ensoniq soundscape plugged in sounded a lot better than with any Soundblaster stuff. Even with a daughterboard connected, because the SB16 will remain noisy, no matter what daughterboard you use. I think that's because the quality of the soundscape ('s A/D and D/A converters) is simply far ahead of the creative consumers cards.
The soundscape elite mainly adds hall and chorus effects, and you are right , it's a question of taste if you like / need them or not.

Swaaye,

Don't you just hate those mysterious 'board bugs'?

I actually DO have the "Elite" board, just no ESP / Daughtercard 🙁
Here's a pic of what I have: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/37 … selitenoesp.jpg
As apposed to the S-2000: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88 … niqsss-2000.jpg

As for the MPU-401AT, it's all kinds of configurable 😀 Both IRQs AND Base Addresses, check it out: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/sound-cards-multi … -MPU-401AT.html

I'm looking forward to Oldschool Box v. 3.0 😀 Once I have everything playing nicely I'll try to do some sort of Dark Forces sound comparison amongst the different music and effects cards I have 😀

Hey look it's my scans on Wikipedia. The Elite scan is the busted one I tossed. You can even see the cap I had to add to it because one broke off and got lost! That wasn't why it broke though. It worked for a long time with that ghetto cap. The card just stopped working one day. I think I static-fried it.

Weird that the ESP card is missing. It's too bad I tossed that broken Elite a year or two ago! I bet the ESP was fine... I managed to find another one on eBay. The seller thought it was a ISA I/O card! Ha ha.

I took some photos of the Ensoniq collection the other day (wow is my cam showing its inadequacy here):

(gallery link)

It's pretty sad when you think about the evolution of these cards. Basically they get cheaper and worse. Smaller patch sets and less robust hardware. AudioPCI is as dumb as sound hardware can get. It's almost entirely software-driven.

The Gateway OEM "OPUS" card (COW chip haha!) actually isn't that bad. It's basically a full Soundscape. Problem is that 1) it's PnP 2)Uses a wave port outside the retail Soundscape range 3) bad 1MB patch set. The wave port causes problems because some games don't let you select it for Soundscape. I had to edit Crusader's cfg file to get it to work, for example.

I've actually given up on the SB16. Believe it or not but the Aureal Vortex SBPro emulation sounds vastly better than the SB16 running in 16-bit mode. I played a bit of OMF2097 last night and it was just night and day! Disgusting quality from that SB16, honestly. It sounded almost mono and just not clear at all. I'm not putting a SCD-15 on there.

Aureal Vortex (off your MX300 I'm assuming) is PCI only though correct? Doesn't that cause issues w/ older DOS only games?

I'm glad I have my MPU-401at for my SCB-55...Okay, this has been bugging me, it's a SCB-55 swaaye!!!! LOOK at the card, no where does it say "SCD-15" 😜 😜 😜

Yeah the MX300 is a Vortex 2 PCI card. The DOS driver is really quite compatible. It seems better than what Ensoniq came up with for AudioPCI (and Creative used thereafter for Live!, etc). It doesn't need EMM386. I just wish it did SB16 emulation, but the Aureal engineers claimed in a usenet post that SBPro was more compatible and that they couldn't do both at the same time.

Yeah you're right it's a SCB-55. The box even said so. But lots of folks call it SCD-15 too!!!! So I don't know what to do! 😀
http://www.midisite.com/info/synth/SCD15.htm
http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tutr/roland.htm

I don't think the P5A was necessarily at fault after all. I've reassembled my rig for the dozenth time this month, this time with my Abit 440BX board. When I run the Tualatin CPU at its 1400 MHz (133 bus), MIDI again won't work off of the MPU-401 port. But if I clock it down to 1050/100, it works! I'm very confused because the CPU isn't overclocked and neither should PCI or ISA be (AGP is though). Baffled is me. But I'm guessing something similar could've been happening on the K6 board. It was only at 100MHz FSB though the entire time so really everything on the board should've been stock..

So who knows.