VOGONS


Reply 200 of 226, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2022-08-19, 05:48:

use qemu only for 3dfx games, dosbox for the rest

1. I am not using qemu-3dfx and I will no longer use that (censored).
2. For dos and 3dfx games I am using 86box and Parallels for directx 3d accelerated games. Dosbox is too slow for anything and doesn't work well.
3. Wolfestein 3D is not a 3dfx game. Its clear that its a EMS issue in QEMU, because same game runs fine in 86box.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 202 of 226, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2022-08-22, 08:31:

why don't you use 86box then?

Bruninho wrote on 2022-08-21, 19:52:

1. I am not using qemu-3dfx and I will no longer use that (censored).
2. For dos and 3dfx games I am using 86box and Parallels for directx 3d accelerated games. Dosbox is too slow for anything and doesn't work well.
3. Wolfestein 3D is not a 3dfx game. Its clear that its a EMS issue in QEMU, because same game runs fine in 86box.

Because I want it to work across all places? All-In-One?

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 203 of 226, by MarkP

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Bruninho wrote on 2022-08-23, 00:56:
robertmo wrote on 2022-08-22, 08:31:

why don't you use 86box then?

Bruninho wrote on 2022-08-21, 19:52:

1. I am not using qemu-3dfx and I will no longer use that (censored).
2. For dos and 3dfx games I am using 86box and Parallels for directx 3d accelerated games. Dosbox is too slow for anything and doesn't work well.
3. Wolfestein 3D is not a 3dfx game. Its clear that its a EMS issue in QEMU, because same game runs fine in 86box.

Because I want it to work across all places? All-In-One?

Good luck doing that.

Reply 206 of 226, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2022-08-28, 04:20:
Bruninho wrote on 2022-08-21, 19:52:

I am using Parallels for directx 3d accelerated games.

Do you happen to know what directx 3d versions are supported?

Since I'm on a M1 Mac, therefore only Windows 11 ARM64 can be virtualized, the answer is Parallels supports DX11

I'm running on W11 ARM64 several editions of FIFA (98, 98 WC, 99, 2000) and NFS Underground just fine, as well as Max Payne 1, Grand Prix 4, Flight Simulator 2004 and X-Wing vs TiE Fighter.

Could run newer games like FS 2020 but I have no interest in them.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 208 of 226, by Bruninho

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Bladeforce wrote on 2022-08-29, 17:28:

Seems a bit of overkill for something standard wine runs fine

except:

1) Wine is still an intel binary, so I do not want to run intel binaries on M1, only natives;
2) Wine never really worked well for me even on intel macs;
3) Wine gives a LOT of trouble and work to make it work;
4) CrossOver is a paid solution and supposed to be easier, but none of my games ran on it.

EDIT: also, Grand Prix 4 and its editors ran massively better on Parallels than through Wine. I have never had a such performance out of Grand Prix 4 even in bare metal.

From the beginning I never wanted to run wine at all, I wanted to run old vms (hence why 86box, dosbox and qemu) for nostalgia and feel the environment I had to play in the 90s.

For all other post-2000 games that demand 3D accel, I just use a modern windows with dx wrappers. Works perfectly fine, the Windows 11 ARM64 translation layer for intel apps/games is much better than people have been "trash talking" for.

So no, I do not want to use wine, I already discarded that solution and will not revisit it; therefore I prefer to use proper virtual machines. I have other reasons for having a Windows 11 ARM64 vm, not just gaming.

For retro gaming I have 86box and UTM (QEMU Frontend). I'm pretty satisfied and covered with all three solutions.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 209 of 226, by Rocket202

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how is going with that VM's?.

Recently i went to the store in my hood and speaking with the seller, he told me people is using VM's to run retro pcs just when i was assembling my retro pc.

Is completely functional 1:1 experience?, i mean no input lag in games, no bugs etc.

Reply 210 of 226, by Bruninho

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Rocket202 wrote on 2022-08-29, 21:45:

how is going with that VM's?.

Recently i went to the store in my hood and speaking with the seller, he told me people is using VM's to run retro pcs just when i was assembling my retro pc.

Is completely functional 1:1 experience?, i mean no input lag in games, no bugs etc.

Depends of what you want to do.

86box is the best experience because its faster than DOSBox, has SB16 and MIDI (well, DOSBox has it too and has its advantages, better sound emulation);
QEMU is there as an alternative for more demanding OS like XP, but no 3D acceleration like 86box and DOSBox (Voodoo 3dfx)
Parallels Desktop v18 provides AAA gaming to an extent with DX11 support (I dont buy new titles so I dont know how modern games will fare, but I am sure they will be fine, given I saw even GTA V running on it, in a youtube video)

86box here emulates DOS/WFW 3.11 for DOS and a few classic Windows games, as well as Windows 98SE for 3dfx games.
QEMU, I use a Mac frontend called UTM. I am virtualizing Windows 11 aarch64, Ubuntu aarch64, just fine. Ubuntu has some 3d accel, but not Windows. I am also emulating XP SP3, Win 98SE and DOS/WFW 3.11, as well as PowerPC MacOS 9.
Parallels Desktop v18 provides me Windows 11 aarch64 with 3d accel for games after 2000's.

Some examples:

PowerPC MacOS 9.2 running X-Wing on QEMU/UTM:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-29_at_6.39.23_PM.png

Windows 11 aarch64 running F1 Challenge 99-02 on Parallels Desktop v18:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-28_at_8.59.52_PM.png

Installing FIFA World Cup 98 and a few installed games on Win 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop again:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-28_at_7.51.20_PM.png

Windows XP SP3 themed as "Windows 2002" to resemble Windows 2000, with Inexperience Patcher, and running software mode games on QEMU/UTM:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-28_at_4.31.21_AM.png

Pro Evolution Soccer 3 running on Win 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-20_at_4.00.55_AM.png

X-Wing running on 86box, DOS 6.22 virtual machine:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-20_at_2.16.52_AM.png

Again QEMU/UTM running Windows For Workgroups 3.11 and Grand Prix Manager 2:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-20_at_1.43.00_AM.png

Ubuntu aarch64 on QEMU/UTM as my main web development machine:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-15_at_3.03.14_AM.png

FIFA 99 on 86box running Windows 98 Second Edition virtual machine:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-15_at_8.42.36_PM.png

Flight Simulator 2004 on Parallels Desktop, Windows 11 aarch64:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-09_at_12.11.39_AM.png

FIFA 99 on Windows 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop, in widescreen with the help of nGlide wrapper:
Screen_Shot_2022-07-20_at_7.22.27_PM.png

So gaming... is flawless. Whenever a 32-bit Windows game has a problem in any emulator, be it 86box or QEMU, I just throw it on Windows 11 aarch64 in Parallels Desktop and play it from there. All games working just fine on all three options.

86box on M1 Macs work very well, but they need someone with experience in ARM to improve their dynarec for arm hosts. Currently the arm dynarec code isnt optimal and albeit you can play a lot of titles without effort, sometimes 86box will crash because the host platform is too fast, the dynarec needs to be fixed for that. QEMU has no problems at all. Parallels runs any windows old game I throw at it with ease.

I'd say a 8/10. Migrating from an intel Mac to M1 was easy and I have no problems, and neither miss anything really. Performance is excellent. For example, one of my favorite 2002 games, Grand Prix 4, runs helluva a lot better on Parallels Desktop with Windows 11 aarch64 than it did in any real machine or other virtual machine I have ever used, never had a such performance even using the custom F1 season mods for that game.

Virtualbox is currently working in a 7.0.0 beta for a release, and one of their betas is an ARM release. They currently have a basic (but buggy) 3D acceleration on Win 11 aarch64. I am waiting till they improve it to test and if its any good, I'll make the jump, because Virtualbox is free currently. So far I am satisfied with what I have and keep adding more of the old games I can dig from my old pack of CDs.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 212 of 226, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2022-08-30, 05:59:

have you tried dgvoodoo2 on Win 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop?

Yes, Grand Prix 3

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 214 of 226, by Rocket202

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Bruninho wrote on 2022-08-30, 05:22:
Depends of what you want to do. […]
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Rocket202 wrote on 2022-08-29, 21:45:

how is going with that VM's?.

Recently i went to the store in my hood and speaking with the seller, he told me people is using VM's to run retro pcs just when i was assembling my retro pc.

Is completely functional 1:1 experience?, i mean no input lag in games, no bugs etc.

Depends of what you want to do.

86box is the best experience because its faster than DOSBox, has SB16 and MIDI (well, DOSBox has it too and has its advantages, better sound emulation);
QEMU is there as an alternative for more demanding OS like XP, but no 3D acceleration like 86box and DOSBox (Voodoo 3dfx)
Parallels Desktop v18 provides AAA gaming to an extent with DX11 support (I dont buy new titles so I dont know how modern games will fare, but I am sure they will be fine, given I saw even GTA V running on it, in a youtube video)

86box here emulates DOS/WFW 3.11 for DOS and a few classic Windows games, as well as Windows 98SE for 3dfx games.
QEMU, I use a Mac frontend called UTM. I am virtualizing Windows 11 aarch64, Ubuntu aarch64, just fine. Ubuntu has some 3d accel, but not Windows. I am also emulating XP SP3, Win 98SE and DOS/WFW 3.11, as well as PowerPC MacOS 9.
Parallels Desktop v18 provides me Windows 11 aarch64 with 3d accel for games after 2000's.

Some examples:

PowerPC MacOS 9.2 running X-Wing on QEMU/UTM:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-29_at_6.39.23_PM.png

Windows 11 aarch64 running F1 Challenge 99-02 on Parallels Desktop v18:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-28_at_8.59.52_PM.png

Installing FIFA World Cup 98 and a few installed games on Win 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop again:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-28_at_7.51.20_PM.png

Windows XP SP3 themed as "Windows 2002" to resemble Windows 2000, with Inexperience Patcher, and running software mode games on QEMU/UTM:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-28_at_4.31.21_AM.png

Pro Evolution Soccer 3 running on Win 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-20_at_4.00.55_AM.png

X-Wing running on 86box, DOS 6.22 virtual machine:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-20_at_2.16.52_AM.png

Again QEMU/UTM running Windows For Workgroups 3.11 and Grand Prix Manager 2:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-20_at_1.43.00_AM.png

Ubuntu aarch64 on QEMU/UTM as my main web development machine:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-15_at_3.03.14_AM.png

FIFA 99 on 86box running Windows 98 Second Edition virtual machine:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-15_at_8.42.36_PM.png

Flight Simulator 2004 on Parallels Desktop, Windows 11 aarch64:
Screen_Shot_2022-08-09_at_12.11.39_AM.png

FIFA 99 on Windows 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop, in widescreen with the help of nGlide wrapper:
Screen_Shot_2022-07-20_at_7.22.27_PM.png

So gaming... is flawless. Whenever a 32-bit Windows game has a problem in any emulator, be it 86box or QEMU, I just throw it on Windows 11 aarch64 in Parallels Desktop and play it from there. All games working just fine on all three options.

86box on M1 Macs work very well, but they need someone with experience in ARM to improve their dynarec for arm hosts. Currently the arm dynarec code isnt optimal and albeit you can play a lot of titles without effort, sometimes 86box will crash because the host platform is too fast, the dynarec needs to be fixed for that. QEMU has no problems at all. Parallels runs any windows old game I throw at it with ease.

I'd say a 8/10. Migrating from an intel Mac to M1 was easy and I have no problems, and neither miss anything really. Performance is excellent. For example, one of my favorite 2002 games, Grand Prix 4, runs helluva a lot better on Parallels Desktop with Windows 11 aarch64 than it did in any real machine or other virtual machine I have ever used, never had a such performance even using the custom F1 season mods for that game.

Virtualbox is currently working in a 7.0.0 beta for a release, and one of their betas is an ARM release. They currently have a basic (but buggy) 3D acceleration on Win 11 aarch64. I am waiting till they improve it to test and if its any good, I'll make the jump, because Virtualbox is free currently. So far I am satisfied with what I have and keep adding more of the old games I can dig from my old pack of CDs.

The ressult is pretty good, the image quality is very very good.

I dont know anything about VM's, just i have used virtualbox to setup sd or sata drivers to install 98SE (imagine 🤣). Looking how you speak i can see a lot of test behind it and that you have controlled the scene and the different possibilities.

I take note from your comment if i want to try in a future, the best thing to me about this is not being limitated due to the hardware, my 98SE pc can run untill half life (and pretty bad being honest 🤣), dos, 95 & 98 is the period of time i want to play, but im not going to lie, if i have the possibility to expand more the hardware to play 3d shooters like quake 3, half life, call of duty etc it would be the perfect machine for me.

Reply 215 of 226, by Bruninho

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Rocket202 wrote on 2022-08-30, 19:14:

The ressult is pretty good, the image quality is very very good.

I dont know anything about VM's, just i have used virtualbox to setup sd or sata drivers to install 98SE (imagine 🤣). Looking how you speak i can see a lot of test behind it and that you have controlled the scene and the different possibilities.

I take note from your comment if i want to try in a future, the best thing to me about this is not being limitated due to the hardware, my 98SE pc can run untill half life (and pretty bad being honest 🤣), dos, 95 & 98 is the period of time i want to play, but im not going to lie, if i have the possibility to expand more the hardware to play 3d shooters like quake 3, half life, call of duty etc it would be the perfect machine for me.

Quake and Half Life will run fine.

Check youtube for the videos of M1 Macs running Call of Duty. Theres a PT-BR one showing it running on the same hardware as mine, the MacBook Air M1.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 216 of 226, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2022-08-30, 16:32:

what about dosbox for windows in Win 11 aarch64, Parallels Desktop?

No need for that when you can run 86box or DOSBox natively on macOS.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 217 of 226, by robertmo

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but you said that Dosbox is too slow for anything and doesn't work well.
So maybe dosbox for mac is somehow not optimised yet.
Cause dosbox for windows is not too slow and works well.
Hence my question about trying dosbox for windows in parallels.
Just for comparison to verify that.

Reply 218 of 226, by Bruninho

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robertmo wrote on 2022-08-31, 05:32:
but you said that Dosbox is too slow for anything and doesn't work well. So maybe dosbox for mac is somehow not optimised yet. C […]
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but you said that Dosbox is too slow for anything and doesn't work well.
So maybe dosbox for mac is somehow not optimised yet.
Cause dosbox for windows is not too slow and works well.
Hence my question about trying dosbox for windows in parallels.
Just for comparison to verify that.

both dosboxes arent optimized because of its arm dynarec. both have arm dynarec so no point.

Anyway, I would not use dosbox.

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!

Reply 219 of 226, by Bruninho

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I just saw that video, UTMs developer osy has made possible to use the hypervisor on iPad Pro M1 to virtualize Windows 10 aarch64 close to bare metal speeds. Works awesomely well! Kudos to osy

https://youtu.be/lDZOjIGHka0

"Design isn't just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works."
JOBS, Steve.
READ: Right to Repair sucks and is illegal!