eddman wrote on 2023-08-18, 18:17:

Compared to what?

feda wrote on 2023-08-18, 16:39:

Lol bro, your weak little laptop CPU is 3x-4x slower than desktop processors

feda wrote on 2023-08-18, 20:43:

eddman wrote on 2023-08-18, 18:17:

Compared to what?

feda wrote on 2023-08-18, 16:39:

Lol bro, your weak little laptop CPU is 3x-4x slower than desktop processors

Obviously it was meant as which models, as evident by the rest of my post. If the category is simply "desktop" with no other qualifier, it even beats a number of them.

Also, my question was in relation to having a "good" performance, not the 3x-4x part. To me even an i3-10100 offers good performance.

A 13900k is more than 4x faster in multi-threaded tests than a 12100, but the latter is still quite good.

It is all about single core performance for CPU emulation and modern architectures are just much better at that and are higher clocked too. Also, "good" isn't always enough when you want to emulate a faster computer, and when your emulator tries to run at a "fixed" speed it is even harder because you as the user have to account for any possible combination of code that has to achieve 100% speed. DOSBox has a "max" mode that doesn't try to run at a fictitious speed (that doesn't correlate to real processor clocks anyways because of how the emulator works) and you can achieve much higher emulated speeds in most software. If you want stutter-free performance in something like PCem all the time, you have to set the bar quite low, or buy the fastest (single core) CPU on the market and overclock it. Emulation is just not that easy.

digistorm wrote on 2023-08-19, 08:29:

It is all about single core performance for CPU emulation and modern architectures are just much better at that and are higher clocked too. Also, "good" isn't always enough when you want to emulate a faster computer...

Yea, that's why I was puzzled by the comparisons to the many-core high-end CPUs and their 3x-4x advantages. PCem doesn't use that many threads and the CPU emulation part is single-threaded only. It's the higher clock speed of such CPUs that make them better, not the number of their cores.

OP's i7 has about 30%-40% higher single-core performance compared to my Ryzen 2600 (which can emulate a P150-200, depending on the software); I'd say that's "good", not great though. That i7 should probably be able to emulate Mobile P1 up to 266 MHz, P Pro 200, and MAYBE the P2 233 and some of the lower clocked K6-2s.

(The question is if this makes sense, at all, whether or not it's possible. I doubt that Windows' Space Cadet 3D pinball needs a Pentium, even, considering that people managed to run it on Windows 3.1x+Win32s.)

feda wrote on 2023-08-18, 16:39:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-18, 14:21:

feda wrote on 2023-08-17, 17:41:

With PCem? Yes, you do. It requires powerful single-threaded performance.

Bro you know if there are more light emulators like PCem because my i7 i think that is cuite powerfull like standard games run ok the only less performance pice of my pc is the GPU but for the games that I play is enough

Lol bro, your weak little laptop CPU is 3x-4x slower than desktop processors and just barely faster than my 10 year old quad core 3570k. Forget about it.

***UPDATE***
guys i dont think that my pc isnt powerfull enoug because when i run pc em whit the specs that i sayed the cpu isnt stressed at all it dosent even touch the 50% of utilize like end that is the same for the GPU RAM end the integrated GPU so i dont understand why it give me this performance like expecialy the audio it sound like a 2012 phone droped in whater at max volume im tinking virtualization is realy enable because in the bios there isnt the option so i think that is ennabled always because virtual box didnt give me a virtualization error unlike my old pc that i had to go in the BIOS so is this bad otimization maby the pc is too recent because the last version of PCem is from like 2020 end my pc i think is from 2022 or like that maby is windows 11? if you want a screenshot of the performance say to me

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

feda wrote on 2023-08-18, 16:39:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-18, 14:21:

Bro you know if there are more light emulators like PCem because my i7 i think that is cuite powerfull like standard games run ok the only less performance pice of my pc is the GPU but for the games that I play is enough

Lol bro, your weak little laptop CPU is 3x-4x slower than desktop processors and just barely faster than my 10 year old quad core 3570k. Forget about it.

***UPDATE***
guys i dont think that my pc isnt powerfull enoug because when i run pc em whit the specs that i sayed the cpu isnt stressed at all it dosent even touch the 50% of utilize like end that is the same for the GPU RAM end the integrated GPU so i dont understand why it give me this performance like expecialy the audio it sound like a 2012 phone droped in whater at max volume im tinking virtualization is realy enable because in the bios there isnt the option so i think that is ennabled always because virtual box didnt give me a virtualization error unlike my old pc that i had to go in the BIOS so is this bad otimization maby the pc is too recent because the last version of PCem is from like 2020 end my pc i think is from 2022 or like that maby is windows 11? if you want a screenshot of the performance say to me

PCem has heavy reliance on single threaded performance. Considering that some of the best CPUs run over 5GHz and yours at 2.8GHz, it should give an idea on what people mean by "terrible".

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

***UPDATE***
guys i dont think that my pc isnt powerfull enoug

Yes, it is.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

because when i run pc em whit the specs that i sayed the cpu isnt stressed at all it dosent even touch the 50% of utilize

Are you talking about CPU overall or 50% in a core? In a 8 core CPU, 50% usage overall may be 4 cores running at 100% and the other 4 running 0%. As they said, CPU emulation runs in a thread (i.e.: a core), so if that core is at 100% it doesn't matter if the other ones are idle.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

like end that is the same for the GPU RAM end the integrated GPU

GPU is not as used as it seems. Most things are emulated by CPU.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

so i dont understand why it give me this performance

Go read this thread from the start.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

like expecialy the audio it sound like a 2012 phone droped in whater

A symptom that your CPU is being maxxed out.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

im tinking virtualization is realy enable because in the bios there isnt the option so i think that is ennabled always because virtual box didnt give me a virtualization error

Virtualization is enabled, so virtualbox and VMWare will run fine. Bad luck; neither PCem nor 86box does use virtualization.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

so is this bad otimization

Somebody once said that a very optimized emulator ran at 1:10 speed (=1 MHz emulated per 10MHz on main CPU). That was an emulator that didn't had sound and didn't care about cycle accuracy... so IMHO a highly optimized emulator that take care about those things would be about 1:20 or 1:30. So, for a 233Mhz you should be able to run a single core at about 5Ghz. Or something like that.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

maby the pc is too recent because the last version of PCem is from like 2020 end my pc i think is from 2022 or like that maby is windows 11?

Not likely.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

if you want a screenshot of the performance say to me

That would be more useful on the PCem forum.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:18:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

feda wrote on 2023-08-18, 16:39:

Lol bro, your weak little laptop CPU is 3x-4x slower than desktop processors and just barely faster than my 10 year old quad core 3570k. Forget about it.

***UPDATE***
guys i dont think that my pc isnt powerfull enoug because when i run pc em whit the specs that i sayed the cpu isnt stressed at all it dosent even touch the 50% of utilize like end that is the same for the GPU RAM end the integrated GPU so i dont understand why it give me this performance like expecialy the audio it sound like a 2012 phone droped in whater at max volume im tinking virtualization is realy enable because in the bios there isnt the option so i think that is ennabled always because virtual box didnt give me a virtualization error unlike my old pc that i had to go in the BIOS so is this bad otimization maby the pc is too recent because the last version of PCem is from like 2020 end my pc i think is from 2022 or like that maby is windows 11? if you want a screenshot of the performance say to me

PCem has heavy reliance on single threaded performance. Considering that some of the best CPUs run over 5GHz and yours at 2.8GHz, it should give an idea on what people mean by "terrible".

Bro are u thinking that my CPU max out at 2.8ghz? Or that 2.8 is the minimum of my CPU?

You haven't even responded if you've checked the windows power plan or not. You can't expect proper help if you don't answer the inquiries. You also haven't pointed out which pinball game exactly. Is it the built-in windows one, or a retail game? If the latter, which one?

It still wouldn't matter, since as stated your CPU isn't powerful enough for a P2 333. I and Jo22 provided first-hand real examples. You also haven't stated if you've tried slower emulated CPUs.

This task manager graph means nothing, because it doesn't show per core performance:

This does:

If you look at your CPU's per-thread utilization, you'll see it's more than 85% utilized, which basically means it's maxed out (when HT is enabled, max per thread load sometimes doesn't read 100%, but it practically is).

PCem doesn't use the GPU at all. It's purely CPU based.

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:47:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:18:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:08:

***UPDATE***
guys i dont think that my pc isnt powerfull enoug because when i run pc em whit the specs that i sayed the cpu isnt stressed at all it dosent even touch the 50% of utilize like end that is the same for the GPU RAM end the integrated GPU so i dont understand why it give me this performance like expecialy the audio it sound like a 2012 phone droped in whater at max volume im tinking virtualization is realy enable because in the bios there isnt the option so i think that is ennabled always because virtual box didnt give me a virtualization error unlike my old pc that i had to go in the BIOS so is this bad otimization maby the pc is too recent because the last version of PCem is from like 2020 end my pc i think is from 2022 or like that maby is windows 11? if you want a screenshot of the performance say to me

PCem has heavy reliance on single threaded performance. Considering that some of the best CPUs run over 5GHz and yours at 2.8GHz, it should give an idea on what people mean by "terrible".

Bro are u thinking that my CPU max out at 2.8ghz? Or that 2.8 is the minimum of my CPU?

Bro, does your CPU go close to 5GHz? If not close, forget getting "almost smooth" performance on a P2 333. You can't get faster performance by arguing. With a R5 1600 OCed @3.8GHz, I don't complain about P2 233 stutter.
Your CPU can be considered decently-fast by notebook and multi threading standards, but not by single threaded standards.

pcem is a slow emulator compared to others so it takes an overkill amount of cpu power than what should be needed to emulate low end cpu speed. It is what it is. The options are optimize it or one of its forks or add/port x desired functionality in pcem if missing in other emulators: dosbox, mame, qemu, . . if just wanting to run a particular game/app there's also dgvoodoo2, wine, .. or going bare metal.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2023-08-19, 13:15:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:47:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2023-08-19, 12:18:

PCem has heavy reliance on single threaded performance. Considering that some of the best CPUs run over 5GHz and yours at 2.8GHz, it should give an idea on what people mean by "terrible".

Bro are u thinking that my CPU max out at 2.8ghz? Or that 2.8 is the minimum of my CPU?

Bro, does your CPU go close to 5GHz? If not close, forget getting "almost smooth" performance on a P2 333. You can't get faster performance by arguing. With a R5 1600 OCed @3.8GHz, I don't complain about P2 233 stutter.
Your CPU can be considered decently-fast by notebook and multi threading standards, but not by single threaded standards.

ye my cpu go close to 5ghz

eddman wrote on 2023-08-19, 13:05:

You haven't even responded if you've checked the windows power plan or not. You can't expect proper help if you don't answer the […]
Show full quote

You haven't even responded if you've checked the windows power plan or not. You can't expect proper help if you don't answer the inquiries. You also haven't pointed out which pinball game exactly. Is it the built-in windows one, or a retail game? If the latter, which one?

It still wouldn't matter, since as stated your CPU isn't powerful enough for a P2 333. I and Jo22 provided first-hand real examples. You also haven't stated if you've tried slower emulated CPUs.

This task manager graph means nothing, because it doesn't show per core performance:

cpu1.png

This does:

cpu2.png

If you look at your CPU's per-thread utilization, you'll see it's more than 85% utilized, which basically means it's maxed out (when HT is enabled, max per thread load sometimes doesn't read 100%, but it practically is).

PCem doesn't use the GPU at all. It's purely CPU based.

so if i want to use pc emm i need a CPU whit a tread at 7ghz how stupid is that

You still didn't answer the questions I asked. You're also misunderstanding the replies.

Clock speed is not the only factor in a core's performance; there's also IPC (Instructions Per Clock).

The fact of the matter is your i7 is two generations older, and on top of that is a laptop model; its single core performance simply isn't high enough for a P2 333. That's the reality.

Just because you don't understand the heavy requirements for low-level emulation, doesn't make it stupid.

Let me make it as clear as possible. This is the rough performance difference between your and my CPU:

That's about 44% faster. I can barely emulate a Pentium 200 MHz, so that means your CPU probably would struggle even with a Mobile Pentium 300, let alone a Pentium 2. A Mobile P1 266 should be fine.

In any case, you should experiment with different emulated CPUs in PCem to find the right fit. Posting replies in this thread is a waste of your time at this point.

so if i want to use pc emm i need a CPU whit a tread at 7ghz how stupid is that

It's physics.

A Pentium 4 did reach 8 GHz in 2007..

https://www.engadget.com/2007-01-24-pentium-4 … re-2-try-t.html

Personally, I agree with what Zup said.
You need a multiple of MHz/GHz for what you want to emulate.

That's why I said "less is sometimes more".
Please try that out. Start with a Pentium machine setting. Or whatever your PC can handle without a hassle.

PCem will tell you in the title if it's running at 100% or not (there's also a separate ststus window that can be activated).

If the emulated PC runs smoothly, half the work is done already.
Just go to mobygames.com and check the minimum specs for your Pinball game.

If you have it, chose a PCem setting that's a little bit better than that, since minimum requirements aren't always realistic.
They're more like an estimation.

So if the game needs a Pentium 75, better choose the next best processor, a Pentium 90.

Anyway, these are just my two cents.

Good luck.
You'll need it. 🙂🤞

@eddman I was typing during your post, sorry. 😅

mothergoose729 wrote on 2023-08-17, 19:11:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-17, 17:30:

eddman wrote on 2023-08-17, 12:09:

Make sure Voodoo 3's render threads count is not set above 2. Change windows' power plan to "High Performance". If it still doesn't help, then it probably means your i7 is not powerful enough to emulate a PII 333; choose a slower PII. If still slow, try a Pentium 1.

It must be noted that certain games have performance issues with v17, regardless of the chosen emulated CPU.

bro wth i need a nasa pc or what? i dont see how emulating can be that heavy

Feel free to build a better PC emulator yourself

Come on, don't be hard on him. It is normal that he doesn't quite understand how hard it can be to emulate a different hardware.

dominusprog wrote on 2023-08-19, 15:53:

mothergoose729 wrote on 2023-08-17, 19:11:

FIN_K89i wrote on 2023-08-17, 17:30:

bro wth i need a nasa pc or what? i dont see how emulating can be that heavy

Feel free to build a better PC emulator yourself

Come on, don't be hard on him. It is normal that he doesn't quite understand how hard it can be to emulate a different hardware.

(S)He's also seemingly confused, judging by the writing style. The posts have no grammar, no punctuation etc. It's hard to read/understand.
I don't mean to judge, but maybe English isn't his/her first language. Maybe there's a language barrier or something, or it's the educational level. 😟

eddman wrote on 2023-08-19, 09:40:

digistorm wrote on 2023-08-19, 08:29:

It is all about single core performance for CPU emulation and modern architectures are just much better at that and are higher clocked too. Also, "good" isn't always enough when you want to emulate a faster computer...

Yea, that's why I was puzzled by the comparisons to the many-core high-end CPUs and their 3x-4x advantages.

Dunno why you're puzzled by this, since high-end CPUs also happen to have much better single-thread performance than OP's laptop, which is what I was getting at.

feda wrote on 2023-08-19, 18:31:

Dunno why you're puzzled by this...

You wrote "3x-4x slower", which is only the case when the multi-threaded performance is compared.