Jorpho wrote on 2021-05-24, 22:39:

batmansquarepants wrote on 2021-05-22, 06:52:

Bit more info is that I'd like to run games from half life, Dino crisis, tomb raider but also a lot of dos games like Duke nukem, redneck rampage and, Sierra and Lucas arts titles.

Are you familiar with ScummVM? ScummVM runs practically anywhere and will play the old Sierra and Lucasarts games flawlessly. There is very little to be gained from running these on an original Windows 98 machine instead.

ScummVM is a great recommendation. Sierra and Lucas Arts adventures can be problematic due to speed sensitivity issues in VGA titles from both. Late-era DOS games many times will run just fine from within Windows 98 and Duke Nukem 3D and Redneck Rampage should both be very playable at 640x480 on a P4/Athlon64 while being choppy at those setting on more mid-90s machines.

bZbZbZ wrote on 2021-05-24, 21:17:

It is very difficult to build a system that runs 1990 DOS games, 2000 Windows games, and everything in between, well. And it is basically impossible to do so without spending a lot of money.

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about evilBay prices... then yeah, they're expensive.

In my country (Romania), finding a cheap KT400/KT600 socket A motherboard + Thoroughbred Athlon XP + RAM is easy, and the combo usually costs $20 or less (~ $12 in this case). As a matter of fact, this ultra-cheap combo also comes with a video card (probably a GeForce 4 MX440 / GeForce FX 5200). But let's assume that it didn't.

Creative SB Live cards are everywhere (SB0220/CT4830) and they're also $10 or less.
For DOS, a Yamaha YMF7x4 card used to be very cheap and easy to find, now they're usually a bit more rare and expensive ($20 - $30)

And as for the video card, GeForce 4 Ti / GeForce FX 59xx cards are more rare and usually cost $25+, but you can always get by with an 128 bit GeForce FX 5200 (< $20), which is more than powerful for any (or most) Windows 98 games and also very compatible for DOS games.

If a PSU is also needed (most likely), there are still new decent PSUs available, that can handle 30A on the 5V/3.3V rails (180W combined wattage). This PSU now costs ~ $30, but its usual discounted price is < 20$. It's very reliable, I bought more than 10 in the past years. 😀

So, as I just showed, right now I can buy parts that cost less than $90 - $100, and build myself a time machine PC that is capable of playing 98% of all games that were released between 1985 and 2000. I wouldn't say that's a lot of money, especially when considering the flexibility it offers.
In fact, I now have 5 such PCs (and more parts on the shelf that can be used to build another 3 or 4 Socket A PCs). And I gotta say, most of the time, when I feel like just playing DOS or Win98 games without any headaches, this is the platform I go with. It. Just. Works (and most of the time it works better / is more stable than period correct PCs).

bloodem wrote on 2021-05-25, 05:50:

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about e […]
Show full quote

bZbZbZ wrote on 2021-05-24, 21:17:

It is very difficult to build a system that runs 1990 DOS games, 2000 Windows games, and everything in between, well. And it is basically impossible to do so without spending a lot of money.

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about evilBay prices... then yeah, they're expensive.

In my country (Romania), finding a cheap KT400/KT600 socket A motherboard + Thoroughbred Athlon XP + RAM is easy, and the combo usually costs $20 or less (~ $12 in this case). As a matter of fact, this ultra-cheap combo also comes with a video card (probably a GeForce 4 MX440 / GeForce FX 5200). But let's assume that it didn't.

Creative SB Live cards are everywhere (SB0220/CT4830) and they're also $10 or less.
For DOS, a Yamaha YMF7x4 card used to be very cheap and easy to find, now they're usually a bit more rare and expensive ($20 - $30)

And as for the video card, GeForce 4 Ti / GeForce FX 59xx cards are more rare and usually cost $25+, but you can always get by with an 128 bit GeForce FX 5200 (< $20), which is more than powerful for any (or most) Windows 98 games and also very compatible for DOS games.

If a PSU is also needed (most likely), there are still new decent PSUs available, that can handle 30A on the 5V/3.3V rails (180W combined wattage). This PSU now costs ~ $30, but its usual discounted price is < 20$. It's very reliable, I bought more than 10 in the past years. 😀

So, as I just showed, right now I can buy parts that cost less than $90 - $100, and build myself a time machine PC that is capable of playing 98% of all games that were released between 1985 and 2000. I wouldn't say that's a lot of money, especially when considering the flexibility it offers.
In fact, I now have 5 such PCs (and more parts on the shelf that can be used to build another 3 or 4 Socket A PCs). And I gotta say, most of the time, when I feel like just playing DOS or Win98 games without any headaches, this is the platform I go with. It. Just. Works (and most of the time it works better / is more stable than period correct PCs).

Won't such a machine lack the conventional memory? I read somewhere here on vogons that drivers for newer cards will consume more conventional memory, memory that you need to be able to run 90's era games?

Also can an athlon XP really be down clocked enough to run speed sensitive games like Indiana Jones fate of atlantis?

(These are questions, I'm not arguing.)

Joakim wrote on 2021-05-25, 08:18:

Also can an athlon XP really be down clocked enough to run speed sensitive games like Indiana Jones fate of atlantis?

Through the BIOS, you can force an unlocked AthlonXP to run at 500 MHz (5x100). If you additionally disable both caches, it will slow down such a downclocked CPU to 386 levels.

The tricky part is getting it to run at 486 or early Pentium speeds. This can be accomplished by using the ACPI Throttle utility on supported VIA motherboards, but other chipsets may not allow quite as much slowdown range.

Joakim wrote on 2021-05-25, 08:18:

Won't such a machine lack the conventional memory? I read somewhere here on vogons that drivers for newer cards will consume more conventional memory, memory that you need to be able to run 90's era games?

Not at all, it's quite easy to have > 600 KB of free conventional memory. I've never had any issues with it.

Joakim wrote on 2021-05-25, 08:18:

Also can an athlon XP really be down clocked enough to run speed sensitive games like Indiana Jones fate of atlantis?
(These are questions, I'm not arguing.)

Yes, speed can be manipulated in various ways (but it depends on that specific CPU/motherboard):

- for CPUs with a locked multiplier: I've found that it's best to have a very fast Barton, but not the fastest. I prefer the 2600+ Bartons (the FSB166/333 variant), because they can be easily overclocked to 2.3 GHz by switching the FSB to 200 (400) MHz (sometimes without a voltage bump). When you do that (well, even before doing it), you get extreme performance in Windows 98 (we're talking 400+ FPS in basically most titles), but even better, in DOS, if you disable the L1 cache (at 2.3 GHz), you're pretty close to the performance of a 486 DX2-66 CPU (34.3 FPS in 3DBench 1.0C). Switching the FSB to lower values (166/ 133 / 100), with a disabled L1 cache, you get performance equivalent to 486 DX-33, 486 SX-25, or that of a fast 386 DX-40 (16.2 FPS in 3DBench 1.0C). Add Throttle into the mix (which is very reliable on VIA chipsets up to 60 - 75% throttling, depending on the specific chipset - past that level stutters/glitches appear), and you can basically obtain ANY speed (from Pentium MMX down to a 286).

- for CPUs with unlocked multiplier: they can be downclocked to 5 x 100 MHz, you can enable and disable L1/L2 caches and you can further fine tune the speed with Throttle (which, again, will give you great flexibility, from Pentium MMX down to 286 levels of performance).

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-05-25, 08:27:

The tricky part is getting it to run at 486 or early Pentium speeds. This can be accomplished by using the ACPI Throttle utility on supported VIA motherboards, but other chipsets may not allow quite as much slowdown range.

Yeah, as I mentioned, it depends on the CPU. With some specific Bartons, without using Throttle, I am able to obtain near 486 DX2-66 speeds (the secret is to keep the CPU running at max speed when disabling the caches). For Pentium (MMX) speeds you definitely need throttle (which works perfectly!) in conjunction with the lowest FSB possible + disabled L2 cache.
With Thoroughbreds, at the highest speed (with caches disabled) you generally get about 24 - 26 FPS in 3DBench 1.0C (so somewhere around a 486 DX-33).

bloodem wrote on 2021-05-25, 05:50:

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about e […]
Show full quote

bZbZbZ wrote on 2021-05-24, 21:17:

It is very difficult to build a system that runs 1990 DOS games, 2000 Windows games, and everything in between, well. And it is basically impossible to do so without spending a lot of money.

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about evilBay prices... then yeah, they're expensive.

In my country (Romania), finding a cheap KT400/KT600 socket A motherboard + Thoroughbred Athlon XP + RAM is easy, and the combo usually costs $20 or less (~ $12 in this case). As a matter of fact, this ultra-cheap combo also comes with a video card (probably a GeForce 4 MX440 / GeForce FX 5200). But let's assume that it didn't.

Creative SB Live cards are everywhere (SB0220/CT4830) and they're also $10 or less.
For DOS, a Yamaha YMF7x4 card used to be very cheap and easy to find, now they're usually a bit more rare and expensive ($20 - $30)

And as for the video card, GeForce 4 Ti / GeForce FX 59xx cards are more rare and usually cost $25+, but you can always get by with an 128 bit GeForce FX 5200 (< $20), which is more than powerful for any (or most) Windows 98 games and also very compatible for DOS games.

If a PSU is also needed (most likely), there are still new decent PSUs available, that can handle 30A on the 5V/3.3V rails (180W combined wattage). This PSU now costs ~ $30, but its usual discounted price is < 20$. It's very reliable, I bought more than 10 in the past years. 😀

So, as I just showed, right now I can buy parts that cost less than $90 - $100, and build myself a time machine PC that is capable of playing 98% of all games that were released between 1985 and 2000. I wouldn't say that's a lot of money, especially when considering the flexibility it offers.
In fact, I now have 5 such PCs (and more parts on the shelf that can be used to build another 3 or 4 Socket A PCs). And I gotta say, most of the time, when I feel like just playing DOS or Win98 games without any headaches, this is the platform I go with. It. Just. Works (and most of the time it works better / is more stable than period correct PCs).

Yeah, I should probably have been more specific... I meant it's basically impossible for the OP to build a cheap computer off eBay.co.uk parts, period-correct to year 2000, which also plays games from 1990.

I believe the OP lives in the United Kingdom (first post mentions pounds as currency), and is shopping on eBay. Clearly if one can find local deals that undercut eBay prices, that is great. What you've accomplished in Romania is wonderful!

bZbZbZ wrote on 2021-05-25, 14:40:

bloodem wrote on 2021-05-25, 05:50:

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about e […]
Show full quote

bZbZbZ wrote on 2021-05-24, 21:17:

It is very difficult to build a system that runs 1990 DOS games, 2000 Windows games, and everything in between, well. And it is basically impossible to do so without spending a lot of money.

This is not entirely true - or, let me rephrase that, it depends where you live and where you buy from. If we're talking about evilBay prices... then yeah, they're expensive.

In my country (Romania), finding a cheap KT400/KT600 socket A motherboard + Thoroughbred Athlon XP + RAM is easy, and the combo usually costs $20 or less (~ $12 in this case). As a matter of fact, this ultra-cheap combo also comes with a video card (probably a GeForce 4 MX440 / GeForce FX 5200). But let's assume that it didn't.

Creative SB Live cards are everywhere (SB0220/CT4830) and they're also $10 or less.
For DOS, a Yamaha YMF7x4 card used to be very cheap and easy to find, now they're usually a bit more rare and expensive ($20 - $30)

And as for the video card, GeForce 4 Ti / GeForce FX 59xx cards are more rare and usually cost $25+, but you can always get by with an 128 bit GeForce FX 5200 (< $20), which is more than powerful for any (or most) Windows 98 games and also very compatible for DOS games.

If a PSU is also needed (most likely), there are still new decent PSUs available, that can handle 30A on the 5V/3.3V rails (180W combined wattage). This PSU now costs ~ $30, but its usual discounted price is < 20$. It's very reliable, I bought more than 10 in the past years. 😀

So, as I just showed, right now I can buy parts that cost less than $90 - $100, and build myself a time machine PC that is capable of playing 98% of all games that were released between 1985 and 2000. I wouldn't say that's a lot of money, especially when considering the flexibility it offers.
In fact, I now have 5 such PCs (and more parts on the shelf that can be used to build another 3 or 4 Socket A PCs). And I gotta say, most of the time, when I feel like just playing DOS or Win98 games without any headaches, this is the platform I go with. It. Just. Works (and most of the time it works better / is more stable than period correct PCs).

Yeah, I should probably have been more specific... I meant it's basically impossible for the OP to build a cheap computer off eBay.co.uk parts, period-correct to year 2000, which also plays games from 1990.

I believe the OP lives in the United Kingdom (first post mentions pounds as currency), and is shopping on eBay. Clearly if one can find local deals that undercut eBay prices, that is great. What you've accomplished in Romania is wonderful!

i suppose compatibility begins with the motherboard & chipset, cant think of 2000 release mb but there might be some with good 1990 compatibility - or maybe an older mb with mix of 2000 & earlier components

bloodem wrote on 2021-05-25, 08:47:

Yeah, as I mentioned, it depends on the CPU. With some specific Bartons, without using Throttle, I am able to obtain near 486 DX2-66 speeds (the secret is to keep the CPU running at max speed when disabling the caches). For Pentium (MMX) speeds you definitely need throttle (which works perfectly!) in conjunction with the lowest FSB possible + disabled L2 cache.
With Thoroughbreds, at the highest speed (with caches disabled) you generally get about 24 - 26 FPS in 3DBench 1.0C (so somewhere around a 486 DX-33).

Throttle is indeed extremely useful. I'm using it constantly on my AthlonXP system (link in sig) and have managed to reach those elusive Pentium MMX and late 486 speeds whenever a game needed them.

However, I have recently found a use case where Throttle might not be the ideal solution. When using a joystick together with Throttle, certain games seem to exhibit odd behavior resulting in random joystick movement. A notable example of this is Privateer 2.

Granted, my testing was limited to a single sound card (Avance Logic ALS100) and just one joystick (CH Flightstick). Maybe the issue is not present in other cases, but this excellent write up by Great Hierophant made me think about it some more.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-05-25, 18:52:

Throttle is indeed extremely useful. I'm using it constantly on my AthlonXP system (link in sig) and have managed to reach those […]
Show full quote

bloodem wrote on 2021-05-25, 08:47:

Yeah, as I mentioned, it depends on the CPU. With some specific Bartons, without using Throttle, I am able to obtain near 486 DX2-66 speeds (the secret is to keep the CPU running at max speed when disabling the caches). For Pentium (MMX) speeds you definitely need throttle (which works perfectly!) in conjunction with the lowest FSB possible + disabled L2 cache.
With Thoroughbreds, at the highest speed (with caches disabled) you generally get about 24 - 26 FPS in 3DBench 1.0C (so somewhere around a 486 DX-33).

Throttle is indeed extremely useful. I'm using it constantly on my AthlonXP system (link in sig) and have managed to reach those elusive Pentium MMX and late 486 speeds whenever a game needed them.

However, I have recently found a use case where Throttle might not be the ideal solution. When using a joystick together with Throttle, certain games seem to exhibit odd behavior resulting in random joystick movement. A notable example of this is Privateer 2.

Granted, my testing was limited to a single sound card (Avance Logic ALS100) and just one joystick (CH Flightstick). Maybe the issue is not present in other cases, but this excellent write up by Great Hierophant made me think about it some more.

Throttle can effect scrolling too. The CPU doesn't actually run slower, it is just forced to stop working.

Moslo is also really useful. It isn't perfect either, but moslo offers two different slowing methods, and with throttle you can find the right combination of software that works best for what you are trying to do.

If you want to keep it inexpensive, then suggestions like Voodoo2, super socket 7, and Athlon XP with ISA slot are going to be hard to find cheap.
Unless you have a long list of early 90s DOS games you want to play on the real hardware, I wouldn't worry about all the speed sensitivity issues. You can build a decent but cheap Win98 gaming with these parts listed:
- A Pentium 4 socket 478 board with Intel 845 or 865 chipset, with a P4 Northwood around 2.0 - 2.8GHz.
- Add 512MB of RAM.
- A Geforce2 GTS or Geforce3. With Nvidia cards, later drivers cause game incompatibilities, so pick a card that can use early drivers, from the 12 -45 releases. Even a GF4 MX and Ti have flickering problems in Duke3d at higher resolutions, so stick with earlier models.
- A SB Live or Audigy sound card. Install the DOS driver for these, and they provide digital audio in DOS games, along with emulated FM music and MIDI music.

The above system will cover most games from around 1994 - 2001 time periods. And then you can decide if you want to dig further down the rabbit hole with Glide, ISA sound cards and speed sensitive early 90's games. Or you might decide that you can use emulation instead of additional hardware.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-05-25, 19:07:

Throttle can effect scrolling too. The CPU doesn't actually run slower, it is just forced to stop working.

In my experience, Throttle does not affect scrolling in any way on VIA chipsets (definitely not on KT400/KT600/KT880) up to level 9 of throttling (sometimes even higher than that). It does affect scrolling and quickly introduces stutters on other chipsets, though (it's particularly bad on all Intel chipsets that I tested - scrolling issues and stuttering when going above level 2, which makes it pretty useless).

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2021-05-25, 18:52:

Throttle is indeed extremely useful. I'm using it constantly on my AthlonXP system (link in sig) and have managed to reach those elusive Pentium MMX and late 486 speeds whenever a game needed them.

However, I have recently found a use case where Throttle might not be the ideal solution. When using a joystick together with Throttle, certain games seem to exhibit odd behavior resulting in random joystick movement. A notable example of this is Privateer 2.

It's possible, never tested any joysticks (don't have any nostalgia related to joysticks, because I never owned one 😁 ). What I know for sure is that mouse and keyboard do work fine (again, depending on chipset and throttling level). 😁