kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 14:51:

Max Headroom wrote on 2023-12-24, 14:42:

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 14:13:

Universities had internet.

…the businesspeople hadn't. And even if they had, they would have hardly any need to use it — there were no business-related WWW sites.

But business people never bought Amigas. So ... ???

…so I'm trying to explain to you, why businesspeople never bought Amigas. Simple: because they didn't need its GUI neither its multitasking.

Max Headroom wrote on 2023-12-24, 15:05:

…so I'm trying to explain to you, why businesspeople never bought Amigas. Simple: because they didn't need its GUI neither its multitasking.

You're joking, right? 😄

There wasn't as much of a need I agree. But do you agree interlaced video was unsuitable for business tasks? Forget about aftermarket solutions to thenproblem, no one cared apparently.

If the display was unsuitable none of the other crap mattered. I'm not a hater. Just honest and willing to accept the facts. No ads by Commodore ever featured an Amiga with aftermarket display and hardware.

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 15:53:

There wasn't as much of a need I agree. But do you agree interlaced video was unsuitable for business tasks?

Most businesspeople didn't care about „video” — whether interlaced, or not. XT/AT's offerings were enough for them.
The only(?) business-related exceptions regarding Amiga were game programming and simpler video tasks (all that Genlocks etc.).

That's absolute hilarity right there. Studies were shown that productivity increased based on the size of the computer screen. Companies that could afford it were laying out 2500$ a pop for high res large screen crt monitors. Less eye strain, less fatigue. Please cut it out.

We were talking about Amiga — and why they weren't that eager to buy it back in the day — not about the sizes of computer screens.

Max Headroom wrote on 2023-12-24, 16:10:

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 15:53:

There wasn't as much of a need I agree. But do you agree interlaced video was unsuitable for business tasks?

Most businesspeople didn't care about „video” — whether interlaced, or not. XT/AT's offerings were enough for them.
The only(?) business-related exceptions regarding Amiga were game programming and simpler video tasks (all that Genlocks etc.).

None of IBM's offerings used interlaced video, despite your attempt to weasel that in there. And tbey were only enough to the extent that's all they could afford or were willing to spend. And in terms of clarity and readabilitu, IBM's offerimgs were much better the Commodore' s. Such nonsense.

Haven't the slightest idea how many weasels are around you — and, honestly, I don't care about „interlaced video”, neither cared the businesspeople back in 1985 .
I hope Santa brings you a huge monitor — interlaced video capable — as a gift.
Merry Christmas to you, and bye!

I wish all of you a joyous Yule 😀

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 17:27:

Max Headroom wrote on 2023-12-24, 16:10:

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 15:53:

There wasn't as much of a need I agree. But do you agree interlaced video was unsuitable for business tasks?

Most businesspeople didn't care about „video” — whether interlaced, or not. XT/AT's offerings were enough for them.
The only(?) business-related exceptions regarding Amiga were game programming and simpler video tasks (all that Genlocks etc.).

None of IBM's offerings used interlaced video, despite your attempt to weasel that in there. And tbey were only enough to the extent that's all they could afford or were willing to spend. And in terms of clarity and readabilitu, IBM's offerimgs were much better the Commodore' s. Such nonsense.

IBM used interlaced video and composite video in a variety of devices including the venerable XGA offerings along with a lot of 15khz composite green screens in industrial, financial and POS systems, which were standard at the time.
Oddly many of ibms so called ASCII “serial screens” ran 15khz internally and these were available at the same time as the pc/xt.

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-23, 20:36:

I know all about the VT. Who doesn't know what the fing VT is. It's irrelevant to the conversation. It wasn't a vehicle for displaying hard core data, but rather glitzy glammy cute graphical shit. A cool device nevertheless. But still no high res text to be had.

right, you where claiming Amigas were not suitable for business, yet many businesses in the creative world used them for business... so claiming they're not capable for business is factually incorrect and thus relevant.
You didn't (until know) specify that business computing to you is for "displaying hard core data" and "still no high res text to be had"
when i just mentioned Amigas productivity modes of up to 1280×512 and 640x480 non interlaced? Which was uncommon unless you usually paid more than the entire amiga itself for a graphics card for your already more expensive IBM? then yes of course its going to perform better? Nobody here is arguing against that.

i can't imagine the amount of incarnations the Vic20/C64 has shown up in weird industrial places or resold as a custom control system

i think the crux of the issue here is you didn't define what you meant by "business computing" and tried to blanket statement that commodore and amiga where terrible for business, which is demonstrably false.

now that we have a (still vague) definition from you, are you now claiming "displaying hard core data" isn't involved with 3D software rendering? that "glitzy glammy cute graphics shit" was used by very large production companies crunching serious amounts of data for use in a professional production pipeline, if you knew anything about 3D rendering you'd understand it's very much "displaying hard core data"

i still really don't understand what you're trying to argue here
Does a significantly more expensive IBM machine combined with an also pricy VGA card enable you do have Very high res text modes and crunch data?
Yes? again nobody is arguing against that.
id imagine reviewers of the day would be very upset if such expensive equipment didn't do what it claimed

kant explain wrote on 2023-12-24, 15:53:

But do you agree interlaced video was unsuitable for business tasks? Forget about aftermarket solutions to thenproblem, no one cared apparently. If the display was unsuitable none of the other crap mattered. I'm not a hater. Just honest and willing to accept the facts. No ads by Commodore ever featured an Amiga with aftermarket display and hardware.

was interlaced modes unsuitable for your Very specific definition of business tasks? Yes?
that's why they had non interlaced productivity screen modes i already mentioned? even with amigas you could buy and slap in an addon card for more higher resolution modes the same as you could in an IBM? again what is your point here?

It's hard to get what you are arguing about ... Any computing device was used in business.

Here you may see just a few examples where devices such as Abacus, Sharp Pocket Computer, TRS-80 Model 100, VIC-20 and Atari ST found their use in business:

I'm assuming when people say business they refer to corporate. So like ya wall Street types. Bankers and executives etc doing spreadsheets for the quarterly maybe companies that handle natural resources like oil ie ExxonMobil and all that.

Other sectors might probably also include defence contractors, government, industrial and manufacturing or utilities etc.

Though if that's what they're referring to they should do a better job of clarifying that.

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-12-26, 17:42:

I'm assuming when people say business they refer to corporate. So like ya wall Street types. Bankers and executives etc doing spreadsheets for the quarterly maybe companies that handle natural resources like oil ie ExxonMobil and all that.

Other sectors might probably also include defence contractors, government, industrial and manufacturing or utilities etc.

Though if that's what they're referring to they should do a better job of clarifying that.

"Business is the practice of making one's living or making money by producing or buying and selling products (such as goods and services). "

Wikipedia

And yes, I am aware of existence of people who think about big corporations when hear word "business", as well as about existence of those who believe that Santa Claus is a real dude. 😄

Hi again, I think maybe it could help to separate into hobbyist computers and non-hobbyist computers.
(By computers, I'm more thinking of unversal machines that can be programmed rather than math machines.)

And while graphics aren't everyting, the 80 columns capability was a good orientation back then.
It's also a minimum text resolution what writers, data entry clerks, secretarys etc had worked with.

In public libaries, terminals and computers used a similar advanced text output, I believe.
Science and research sector also had a use for this, as well.

Resolution wise, 640x400 seems to have been sort of a marker, too.
It's a number that's re-appearing quite often in the past it seems.

AT&T/Olivetti CGA, Atari ST Hi-res, PC-98, Amiga, Hercules Monochrome (720x348 and 640x400), Tandy 2000, early LCD laptops,
lowest VBE mode (640x400 256c; 100h), minimum resolution of SVGA cards (PVAGA1A w/ 256KB has 640x400 256c driver for Windows 2)

Anyway, it's hard to draw a hard line here, maybe. 🤷
IBM's EGA was slightly below those 400 lines (640x350), too, after all.

_
Maybe that's why the C64 is a bit of a controversial topic, too.
It's somehow in-between the home computer/hobbyist and personal computer/non-hobbyist category.

It also has lots of fans among ordinary citizen, while professionals don't know what to make of it (I count me in).

The C64 was sort of a "Flickschusterei" (patchwork) that recycled the earlier VIC-20 chassis, keyboard and pheripherals
and that was being fixed by the community - many flaws got their workaround over the years.

Let's just think of floppy speeders, various hardware mods (esp. 1541; parallel i/o, RAM upgrade, DolphinDOS).
Or the simulated 80 character mode and the GEOS add-ons/modifications.

Maybe that's also why the community grow and got so attached to the C64, maybe ?
Whoever worked with the C64 needed to fix or expand the breadbin it in some way.

Be it the reset button mod, replacing a broken PLA chip or playing with cartriges/EPROMs.

Those users who worked a lot with the C64 automatically learned how to operate a soldering iron,
burn EPROMs or program in BASIC or do assembly coding in 6502/6510.

I mean, that surely had affected a lot of peoples later life and carreer.
So maybe that's why the C64 means so much to some people, or a whole generation, rather.

To them, it's a bit like a little puppy or kitten that they had raised by themselves.
Or a vintage car that they had repaired/tuned in their youth, with the help of family/friends.

Unfortunately, I'm afarid I'm too young to know for sure and can only guess. 🤷
I suppose that's also a reason as to why I have difficulties to mentally classify things here.

Maybe that explains why expecially the many little flaws of the platform do stand out so much from my point of view.
Still, at same time it surprises me repeatedly how much love the buggy little C64 gets (in a positive way).

The projects those C64 fans work on also do often breathe new life into other parts of the vintage electronics or retro hobby scene.
So these fine individuals also have a positive effect on us, in several subtle ways that may not be noticeable at first glance. 😀

PS: Also my apologies that the thread shifted a bit in the last days, it surely was also my fault in some way.
The quotes from golem.de were more like a sanity check for me than an intended provocation.

Maybe it's also because of my socializing, I've always been taught to think for myself and question authority and mainstream a bit.
That's, I assume, why the overly positive C64 fandom raised my suspicions and caused me to be more critical than normal.

Not sure how to put it into the words. Something similar happened to me when Linux was being praised heavily in the 2000s (it was almost sect like to me).
Anyway, that's another story. I just hope everyone continues to enjoy vintage computing as much as I do. 😁