I realize I misread part of your text and didn't catch you were asking between CM-32L and MT-32 (new). I don't think there's much difference in compatibility other than minor sound differences. I think you can cover a huge range with just an MT-32 (old) and a CM-32L/LAPC-I.

I'm not aware of any games that explicitly require an MT-32 (new) that wouldn't otherwise work with a CM-series device.

The only reason I could see to have all three is if you wanted to play a game without the additional CM-series sound effects, but still required an MT-32 (new) for proper sounding playback.

Personally I just use an MT-32 (old) with a CM-series device (CM-32L or CM-64). I've never felt the need to add a separate MT-32 (new).

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-01-02, 21:26:

The only reason I could see to have all three is if you wanted to play a game without the additional CM-series sound effects, but still required an MT-32 (new) for proper sounding playback.

Oh, that's an interesting what if scenario I did not think about first! This would actually be a nice-to-have to show the differences. And according to the ultimate tutorial, there are games which make use of both the MIDI messages and the CM series effects, which makes absolutely no sense.

I don’t know of any games that sound different between the new model and the CM.

I will say that even the differences between the new and old model are very small and apply to only a tiny handful of specific locations in a tiny number of games. Most people when hearing it in person are probably unlikely to notice or care about the difference between the new and old models. The old models are really more for people who are collectors who want that tiny, tiny difference. Having said that, I am such a collector and I do own the old model. But I’ve yet to actually encounter one of the locations where the difference would be audible.

What do you mean by "every" game? There are plenty of games on Japanese systems that support the CM-64 (CM-32P)...

SuperDeadite wrote on 2024-01-03, 05:01:

What do you mean by "every" game? There are plenty of games on Japanese systems that support the CM-64 (CM-32P)...

I mean every game which claims to support the MT-32 (whatever the result is). Can we count the CM-32P (and the corresponding part of the CM-64) to the MT-32 compatible devices? From what I could find, they are not compatible, so the Japanese games you are mentioning should explicitly support the CM-32P compatible models I guess?

KVM Nerd wrote on 2024-01-03, 09:27:

SuperDeadite wrote on 2024-01-03, 05:01:

What do you mean by "every" game? There are plenty of games on Japanese systems that support the CM-64 (CM-32P)...

I mean every game which claims to support the MT-32 (whatever the result is). Can we count the CM-32P (and the corresponding part of the CM-64) to the MT-32 compatible devices? From what I could find, they are not compatible, so the Japanese games you are mentioning should explicitly support the CM-32P compatible models I guess?

There are no CM-32P only games. They are all CM-64 games and use both the 32L and 32P together. You can link a stand alone 32L with a 32P instead of using a 64, as they are the same hardware.

SuperDeadite wrote on 2024-01-03, 09:59:

KVM Nerd wrote on 2024-01-03, 09:27:

SuperDeadite wrote on 2024-01-03, 05:01:

What do you mean by "every" game? There are plenty of games on Japanese systems that support the CM-64 (CM-32P)...

I mean every game which claims to support the MT-32 (whatever the result is). Can we count the CM-32P (and the corresponding part of the CM-64) to the MT-32 compatible devices? From what I could find, they are not compatible, so the Japanese games you are mentioning should explicitly support the CM-32P compatible models I guess?

There are no CM-32P only games. They are all CM-64 games and use both the 32L and 32P together. You can link a stand alone 32L with a 32P instead of using a 64, as they are the same hardware.

I didn't know there are games existing which make use of all CM-64 (CM-32L + CM-32P) features. So I'd have to think about the extra hassle of higher noise and the need to mute the CM-32P part for some games when using a CM-64. Maybe it's the better option when searching for highest possible compatibility. The https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/List_of_ … _computer_games list actually shows some games which support the CM-64, I did not notice this while scrolling through it first. Thank you for the hint!

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the cm64 games are pretty much only for the sharp x68000 amd maybe pc9800? And some make use of the cards that you can insert into the 64?

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-01-03, 11:37:

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the cm64 games are pretty much only for the sharp x68000 amd maybe pc9800? And some make use of the cards that you can insert into the 64?

That would be interesting to know, because I am one the PC/x86 side of things.

Hi there, I'm an owner of both a CM64 and an MT-32 - but to be honest, I mainly use these units for testing.
For actual gameplay, I'm very happy with mt32-pi and munt.
So even if you're not having access to the real thing™, please don't feel sad.

Also, the CM64 has a bit of trouble with older Sierra On-Line titles. That's because the CM32P gets being triggered unintentionally.
Sierra didn't disable the MIDI channels that the CM32L/MT-32 ignores by default.
Anyway, it's not a hardware fault. It's a buggy MIDI support in these Sierra titles.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-03, 12:40:

Hi there, I'm an owner of both a CM64 and an MT-32 - but to be honest, I mainly use these units for testing.
For actual gameplay, I'm very happy with mt32-pi and munt.
So even if you're not having access to the real thing™, please don't feel sad.

It would be wise to use mt32-pi, but I can't stand running the real devices.

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-03, 12:40:

Also, the CM64 has a bit of trouble with older Sierra On-Line titles. That's because the CM32P gets being triggered unintentionally.
Sierra didn't disable the MIDI channels that the CM32L/MT-32 ignores by default.
Anyway, it's not a hardware fault. It's a buggy MIDI support in these Sierra titles.

I've learnt this can be addressed by disabling the CM-32P part of the CM-64 via SysEx.

I have an MT-32 (old), a CM-32L, and CM-32P. The MT-32 (old) is for proper compatibility and sound for the oldest games as well as games that print messages, the CM-32L is for games that have overflow bugs or sound wrong on the MT-32 (old), and the CM-32P is for weird Japanese games. With those three you cover everything. I'm not sure if the CM-32L has anything the MT-32 (new) doesn't at this point since I've been too busy for literal years at this point.

Edit: CM-32L has additional sound effects. That's why it's in my setup.

Worth noting that the CM-32L has different master pan settings, so it is not compatible in a strict sense with MT-32 titles, either old or new.

Can expand on this if needed.

Spikey wrote on 2024-01-08, 12:11:

Worth noting that the CM-32L has different master pan settings, so it is not compatible in a strict sense with MT-32 titles, either old or new.

Can expand on this if needed.

Please do, thank you in advance! Maybe it's worth to know to make a decision which devices to own.

(NOTE: More investigation is needed so it's possible I'll edit this.)

Essentially :

- The MT-32 does not use all pan instructions from 0 to 127 like GM does. It divides it by 9 and goes nearest neighbour. So panning on the left side for example is values 63 (centre), 72 (left 9 AKA MT-32 pan position 1, would be right 8 in GM), 81 (left 18/pan 2), 90 (left 27/pan 3), 99 (left 36/pan 4), 108 (left 45/pan 5), 117 (left 54/pan 6), and 126 (left 63/pan 7). Values other than these panning instructions will be rounded down to one of these values. In other words whether you pan 72-80 in a 0-127 sense, it should all come out at the MT-32's pan position 1, or 72 (left 9).

- The computers on MT-32's and CM's for some reason divide things into left and right differently (no idea why) so the panning math comes out differently too! So some panning designed for MT-32 or CM-32L on the opposite device will cause skewed panning then originally intended. The CM-32L also has a slight bias towards the right side, whch means MT-32 panning on a CM device will be pulled to the right slightly.
Using the left side again as an example, the centre now is 60 (right 3 in an MT-32 sense which would still yield centre on a MT-32, left 4 in a GM sense, which would not be centre). Pan position 1 is then 68 (left 8 on a CM-32L, left 5 MT-32, right 4 GM), 2 is 77 (left 17 CM, 14 MT), 3 is 85 (left 25 CM, 22 MT), 4 is 94 (34 CM, 31 MT), 5 is 102 (42 CM, 39 MT), 6 is 111 (51 CM, 48 MT) and 7 is 119 (59 CM, 56 MT).

- So to provide real world context for this. Let's say the panning is set to a MIDI value of 78. In a MT-32 sense, that would be left 14, rounded down to nearest left 9, and thus left pan position 1 (slight left panning). In a CM-32L sense, this would be left 18 (rounded down to nearest left 17), and thus left pan position 2 this time (slight to moderate left panning).
In other words, the same MIDI pan data will cause the two devices to shift the audio different amounts, resulting in a different listening experience.
This is with an individual instrument, one can imagine with 4-9 instruments in most tracks, it will affect most musical tracks in a game, probably a handful severely per game.

- The most important takeaway is that the CM-32L has bad/different maths when dividing pan data in stereo and then in particular on the left side - and so should be avoided for playing back MT-32 scores.

Thank you for all the detailed explanations! I can imagine this has an influence on the panning and the overall sound experience. This underlines my decision to simply buy all three devices to be absolutely sure every game sounds like intended by the score composer and/or sound designer. I hope I will be able to do tests on this soon once my setup is complete.

Once more, thank you in advance for everyone's opinion on this!