The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-02-12, 11:01:

For me anything older than LGA 775 with Core 2 latest version/ socket AM2+ with Phenom II is vintage because of missing instruction sets required by today software.

Phenom II has only SSE3 functionality and is obsolete.
Core 2 45nm has only SSE4.1 and many programs nowadays require both SSE4.1 and 4.2.

I was under the impression that Phenom II has SSE4! It seems i was wrong.
Core 2 quad Q9XXX runs everything I throw at it! Actually the primary bottleneck in the system are SATA II/USB 2.0 which are severely limiting transfer rates and not the CPU or the 8gb of ram!

I still hold firmly to the understanding that Vintage is any computer part that pre-dates 32bit, Anything after until 64bit fits the Retro tag but with time will also fall into the "Vintage" era.

Do I consider Core2 to be Retro . .not really, its still perfectly serviceable for day to day use if a little slow. I guess it would fit the post modern tag but its not quite old enough to fit Retro yet.

That said ..775 and Core2 win this argument for me.

i don't even consider the pentium 4 retro since it dropped isa and has sse2. i mean, can you even do intelligent mode midi in hardware without isa? i still have a northwood 2.8ghz system running my plex server. technically, it's an lga775 motherboard with a 478 socket, but it does just fine running debian bookworm and still has 2 ide channels so i can stripe 4 large 320gb drives (that would otherwise be scrapped) while the os runs off a sata ssd. i have to admit though, the industrial p4 boards with isa & agp slots look like the ideal win9x system.

stanwebber wrote on 2024-02-14, 13:17:

i don't even consider the pentium 4 retro since it dropped isa and has sse2. i mean, can you even do intelligent mode midi in hardware without isa? i still have a northwood 2.8ghz system running my plex server. technically, it's an lga775 motherboard with a 478 socket, but it does just fine running debian bookworm and still has 2 ide channels so i can stripe 4 large 320gb drives (that would otherwise be scrapped) while the os runs off a sata ssd. i have to admit though, the industrial p4 boards with isa & agp slots look like the ideal win9x system.

The P4 is clearly retro.
And for Win98, the ideal hardware is now RyZen, with modern drivers, even under DOS, with decelerators, etc., many retro-loving professional programmers have written the appropriate drivers.
I also have retro machines, but they seem to be out of use...

nd22 wrote on 2024-02-14, 07:40:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-02-12, 11:01:

For me anything older than LGA 775 with Core 2 latest version/ socket AM2+ with Phenom II is vintage because of missing instruction sets required by today software.

Phenom II has only SSE3 functionality and is obsolete.
Core 2 45nm has only SSE4.1 and many programs nowadays require both SSE4.1 and 4.2.

I was under the impression that Phenom II has SSE4! It seems i was wrong.
Core 2 quad Q9XXX runs everything I throw at it! Actually the primary bottleneck in the system are SATA II/USB 2.0 which are severely limiting transfer rates and not the CPU or the 8gb of ram!

Phenom has SSE4A, which isn't as widely supported as SSSE3 (65nm Core 2), SSE4.1 (45nm Core 2) and SSE4.2 (first gen Core i).
However, SSE4A does include POPCNT, which is an instruction the upcoming 24H2 build of Windows 11 will require. SSE4.1 does not include POPCNT, so funnily enough Phenom will be able to unofficially run the next major update to Win11; Core 2 won't. 😀

Standard Def Steve wrote on 2024-02-14, 16:39:

However, SSE4A does include POPCNT, which is an instruction the upcoming 24H2 build of Windows 11 will require. SSE4.1 does not include POPCNT, so funnily enough Phenom will be able to unofficially run the next major update to Win11; Core 2 won't. 😀

You beat me to it... this POPCNT thing may finally be the thing that pushes the 45nm C2D/C2Q platform into full retro status.

stanwebber wrote on 2024-02-14, 13:17:

i don't even consider the pentium 4 retro since it dropped isa and has sse2. i mean, can you even do intelligent mode midi in hardware without isa? i still have a northwood 2.8ghz system running my plex server. technically, it's an lga775 motherboard with a 478 socket, but it does just fine running debian bookworm and still has 2 ide channels so i can stripe 4 large 320gb drives (that would otherwise be scrapped) while the os runs off a sata ssd. i have to admit though, the industrial p4 boards with isa & agp slots look like the ideal win9x system.

Its not, the industrial boards dont usually implement older ISA standards very well if at all since for industrial purposes they are not required so YMMV with compatibility and the industrial boards, same applies to AGP as that can be emulated via PCIe. Drivers for industrial boards are also an issue as they are usually not done in the same manner as consumer boards or were updated as often, this alone is usually why I avoid industrial boards unless it was a well supported brand.

Best Win9x would be a 865/875 board or one of the Asrock 775 boards that got Win9x drivers or you can go older Intel 845/850 or one of the early Athlon XP boards KT133A to get full correct ISA implementation.

Best Win9x would be a 865/875 board or one of the Asrock 775 boards that got Win9x drivers or you can go older Intel 845/850 or one of the early Athlon XP boards KT133A to get full correct ISA implementation.

Asrock is really very good, for example the 775i65G. It doesn't have ISA, but it has full Win98 support, and it works perfectly with SBlive under 98 and DOS.

DarthSun wrote on 2024-02-15, 16:24:

Best Win9x would be a 865/875 board or one of the Asrock 775 boards that got Win9x drivers or you can go older Intel 845/850 or one of the early Athlon XP boards KT133A to get full correct ISA implementation.

Asrock is really very good, for example the 775i65G. It doesn't have ISA, but it has full Win98 support, and it works perfectly with SBlive under 98 and DOS.

Ive been after a Rev3.0 version of that exact board for a while now, one will eventually pop up on Evilbay !

@Trashbytes

Ive been after a Rev3.0 version of that exact board for a while now, one will eventually pop up on Evilbay !

I only have Rev2, but with E6600, good Win98/DOS machine.

DarthSun wrote on 2024-02-16, 00:30:

@Trashbytes […]
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@Trashbytes

Ive been after a Rev3.0 version of that exact board for a while now, one will eventually pop up on Evilbay !

I only have Rev2, but with E6600, good Win98/DOS machine.
e6600_6800gt_3dm2001_w98.jpg
775_w98ee_6800gt.jpg

Yep, lovely board, only after the 3.0 as its CPU support is better (It supports everything it can) and it has the updated VRM and other component updates. That E6600 is a lovely CPU too, one of my favourite C2 CPUs alongside the Q6600 and E8600.

That said if I ever see a 2.12 rev again im going to snap it up, I missed the last one I saw on Evilbay.

That said if I ever see a 2.12 rev again im going to snap it up, I missed the last one I saw on Evilbay.

Of course, rev3 is best, but it's no problem if it's not there, because with modern drivers, it works fine even on modern DOS/Win98 machines.
On P45 comes a little extra power, with Zen2 horsepower is unleashed.

VivienM wrote on 2024-02-14, 23:01:

You beat me to it... this POPCNT thing may finally be the thing that pushes the 45nm C2D/C2Q platform into full retro status.

Yeah, don't count on it, chief.