I'm hearing some good reasons to try to get SB16 support worked into this build somehow.

I might try SBEMU and see if that could be a solution. It apparently works with Audigy cards. Not sure if that includes the Audigy 2 ZS, but since I already have one in the build I might as well try it.

Alternatively, I'll have to figure out how to free up that second ISA slot for an AWE64.

I recently acquired a pair of Pentium 4 661 processors. I wanted to see how they would work in lieu of the current P4 651.

Unfortunately, upon testing both processors it turns out they don't support multiplier options. I'd previously tested both the 641 and 651 processors and they both support multiplier steps. 641 supports 12x to 16x and the 651 supports 12x to 17x.

I had hoped the 661 would give me one more step, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm not sure if these might be re-badged processors or if the 661 series is multiplier locked for some reason.

Guess I'm sticking with the 651 for the time being.

edited to add:

It looks like these are the SL9KD (B1) revision of the 661. It's likely only the C1 and D0 steppings that support multiplier adjustments.

thats interesting pretty sure it was 12-18 multi what revision is it?.

They are both the SL94V (B1) revision.

In looking up the specs on Wikipedia, it looks like it's only the C1 or D0 steppings that support multiplier adjustments:

Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology (EIST) supported by: C1, D0 steppings

Update on testing the MK8330. I managed to get it working using the UNISOUND drivers. For whatever reasons, the official CMI8330 drivers do not get along with this motherboard.

Unfortunately, I still ran into some problems.

First, is this card is not fully compatible with Crusader: No Remorse. I experienced the same distorted audio during the FMV sequences. The distorted audio occurred less frequently than the Orpheus II, but it was still an issue.

Second, the SB16 audio using this card is stereo reversed in every single game I tried (about 10 games total). While stereo reversed audio is an issue with at least some games at the best of times, this is more problematic than I want to deal with.

I also tested SBEMU to see if it could be a solution. While it worked with a few games I tested, it also failed to work with Crusader. The install program would just hang when attempting to play audio. And trying to run the game directly resulted in a crash due to a General Protection Fault.

It seems like my only options for trouble-free SB16 audio in Crusader: No Remorse are going to be a proper Creative Labs card (e.g. AWE64) or SB16 emulation via DOSBox.

why not c2d ?

have same board and running with e4700 @ 2.6ghz c2d cpu. much faster and cooler. lower multiplier is 6. 6x100 is possible

best option to have x6800, open multiplier.

cpu pin mod required and bios update ( from another topic on vogons)

dm- wrote on 2024-05-29, 04:40:

why not c2d ? […]
Show full quote

why not c2d ?

have same board and running with e4700 @ 2.6ghz c2d cpu. much faster and cooler. lower multiplier is 6. 6x100 is possible

best option to have x6800, open multiplier.

cpu pin mod required and bios update ( from another topic on vogons)

I haven't attempted the mod yet. I have a couple extra G7S620-N motherboards, and I plan to try modding one of them at some point. Just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I also have an X6800 processor, but it also seems limited to 6x at the low end. I've tried experimenting with it on a different motherboard. With cache disabled and modifying FSB and multiplier settings, I can get to perform in the range of fast 286 to a slow 486.

from motherboard side only bios update required.

use standard pin mod for c2d.
do not use conductive pen, solder a thin wire on cpu. (W1V1U1 and C23D23)

but do not connect am1-4+al5-7+ak4,5 - it will set core voltage to 1.08v which is too low.
only isolate VID4 and VID2 pins, it will give you a safe range of 1,1000-1,1625v and 1,2750-1,3625v

table of signals for VRM11(left) and VRM10(right)

Do you guys have a copy of the modified G7S620 bios? Or what is the latest version to use, I have the motherboard and am looking to put a C2D in it. Cheers

I've been doing investigating into the Core2 mod. I've come away with a few thoughts and conclusions that it doesn't make sense for this current build.

Throttling and Low-end Performance

I've been testing the throttling ability of the X6800 CPU with another motherboard (Asrock 775i65G R2.0). The limitation of the X6800 is the fact it only goes down to a 6x multiplier. Unfortunately Intel limited the low end multiplier despite being "unlocked".

With cache disabled and at 266 MHz (host frequency), I get 3DBench scores ranging from 20.4 (11x multiplier) down to 16.1 (6x multiplier). This is a ~21% range of performance. With my current Pentium 4 651 processor, I get 3DBench scores of 33.3 (17x) down to 27.7 (12x). This is a ~17% range of performance.

What this means is despite having an unlocked multiplier, the X6800 isn't really that much better when it comes to scaling performance at the low end based on multplier alone.

What really seems to make a difference for low-end performance is changing CPU host frequency. If I throttle the Asrock board to 95MHz with cache disabled I get 3DBench scores of 7.1 (11x) down to 5.6 (6x).

What I really need to do is figure out how to throttle the FSB on this DFI G7S620-N motherboard. Unfortunately the stock BIOS doesn't provide any option for that. I tried Rayer's SMB tool, but it doesn't support the PLL chip used on this DFI motherboard.

I found a reference in this thread to a tool called SetPLL, but I can't find any downloads for it. The forum it seems to have been originally posted on just has some dead Mediafire links.

Performance at the High End

My current GPU (GeForce4 4200 Ti) limits performance at the high end. Pairing a Core2 processor with a GPU from 2002 likely won't have any real benefit on performance with this GPU. If I were to do a Core2 mod, I would likely need a faster GPU to really take advantage of it.

For example, this Radeon HD 3850 AGP card:

I've considered doing a build using this Radeon graphics card paired with a PCI GPU like an FX5500 or Voodoo3 3000. I think a Core2 processor would pair better in a set up like that.

In a future build, I might strive for a 10-OS system (adding Vista and Win7 to the mix) with the above dual GPU combo. This would be an entirely new build though.

Motherboard Swap?

Another thing I am considering is replacing the motherboard entirely. I still want to squeeze in an AWE64 sound card to have greater DOS sound compatibility. I've looked at other possible motherboards with an extra PCI slot. Switching boards would enable me to keep the current setup I have, plus add an AWE64.

If I end up swapping the motherboard for this build, doing a Core2 mod with the DFI G7S620-N motherboard becomes moot.

For example, this Radeon HD 3850 AGP card

AMD DX10 cards can't do any 16-bit dithering so opportunity to play 16-bit color only games with high quality anti-aliasing and filtering is wasted on an AGP system.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-08, 02:16:

For example, this Radeon HD 3850 AGP card

AMD DX10 cards can't do any 16-bit dithering so opportunity to play 16-bit color only games with high quality anti-aliasing and filtering is wasted on an AGP system.

Are there any games from the XP era that would be 16-bit color only?

And as I noted though, there would be a secondary GPU (e.g. PCI FX5500 or Voodoo3). The intent is for the latter to use with DOS/Win9X, while the Radeon 3850 would be for XP and up.

And as I noted though, there would be a secondary GPU (e.g. PCI FX5500 or Voodoo3).

They are lacking sufficient quality options or just not fast enough for some games, like SHOGO: Mobile Armor Division as an example.

Another thing I am considering is replacing the motherboard entirely

There aren't many better options, if you want a fast CPU with properly working ISA. Well, there's also dISAppointment project, but it has limitations.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2024-06-08, 02:27:

And as I noted though, there would be a secondary GPU (e.g. PCI FX5500 or Voodoo3).

They are lacking sufficient quality options or just not fast enough for some games, like SHOGO: Mobile Armor Division as an example.

I'm aware there is a performance trade-off in such a setup.

The whole point of such an experimental build isn't to achieve perfect compatibility. It's about seeing how broad OS/gaming coverage is possible and document what the trade-offs are.

There aren't many better options, if you want a fast CPU with properly working ISA.

But there are options. 😉

I've tried looking up which games actually need 16-bit dithering (circa 1998 to 2000?). It seems it's mainly LithTech engine games and a couple others?

So far the games I've seen listed include: Thief 2, Blood II: The Chosen, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, KISS: Psycho Circus, and Starlancer.

Are there any others?

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-08, 03:05:

So far the games I've seen listed include: Thief 2, Blood II: The Chosen, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, KISS: Psycho Circus, and Starlancer.

Are there any others?

Thief: The Dark Project (along with its Gold version) and System Shock 2 also use 16-bit colors only. I think European Air War might fall into this category as well (not entirely sure), and possibly some other flight sims from that time.

IIRC, support for 24-bit and 32-bit colors was somewhat uncommon prior to 1998.

- Battlezone
- Colin McRae Rally
- Descent: FreeSpace – The Great War
- Gabriel Knight 3: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned
- Need For Speed III: Hot Pursuit

Just the 3D games that only support 16-bit colors from my small collection of 90's games that haven't been mentioned yet, I don't think it matters with isometric games like C&C: Tiberian Sun and the like? I think there's plenty of 16-bit color only games out there.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-08, 06:06:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-08, 03:05:

So far the games I've seen listed include: Thief 2, Blood II: The Chosen, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, KISS: Psycho Circus, and Starlancer.

Are there any others?

Thief: The Dark Project (along with its Gold version) and System Shock 2 also use 16-bit colors only. I think European Air War might fall into this category as well (not entirely sure), and possibly some other flight sims from that time.

IIRC, support for 24-bit and 32-bit colors was somewhat uncommon prior to 1998.

OG versions, yes.

NewDark patch lets you use DX7+, at 32bit on both Thief and SS2.

Sombrero wrote on 2024-06-08, 06:36:

I don't think it matters with isometric games like C&C: Tiberian Sun and the like?

Yeah, Tiberian Sun is fine, it's not using any 3D acceleration API, only DirectDraw.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-08, 06:06:

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-08, 03:05:

So far the games I've seen listed include: Thief 2, Blood II: The Chosen, Shogo: Mobile Armor Division, KISS: Psycho Circus, and Starlancer.

Are there any others?

Thief: The Dark Project (along with its Gold version) and System Shock 2 also use 16-bit colors only. I think European Air War might fall into this category as well (not entirely sure), and possibly some other flight sims from that time.

IIRC, support for 24-bit and 32-bit colors was somewhat uncommon prior to 1998.

Main thing I'm trying to determine is games that would require 16-bit colors but wouldn't perform well on a PCI 3D card (e.g. Voodoo3 PCI or FX5500). I figure it's that time from about 1998-2000(ish) where such games likely lie.

Earlier 3D games would probably be fine with a PCI 3D card.