darry wrote on 2020-06-19, 04:10:

Did some more tests with the OSSC (in pass-through mode) together with the CP-254 . I could not get 1152x864 @60Hz or 70Hz, whatever I tried (I started with proper VESA timings in Powerstrip and matched the in the OSSC), but always get no picture .
1024x768@60Hz and at 70Hz do work, but I lose about 2 pixels on the left size if I follow VESA timings to a T . This also happens in DOS (720x400), but is on the left side instead . In either case, playing with sync, porch and active pixels lets me move the image sideways and switch the cutoff from side to side but not increase the horizontal image size . (maybe I'm doing it wrong, though). My guess is that the CP-254 masks some lines .

I added an HDMI switch to the output of the OSSC . One side goes to CP-254 for when I need proper aspect in DOS at 70Hz . The other side goes directly to my main HDMI switch, so I can get all 4:3 modes in Windows without going to through the CP-254 . I now have an even bigger mess of HDMI cables and increased need for manipulation when switching modes, but I am as close to perfection as I can get with available equipment .

The masking effect I mentioned causes me to lose about 5 pixels out of 640 on the X axis, so 2.5 actually 2.5 out of 320 , which I can live with for now .

Of course, I do have a powered Startech 2-way VGA splitter(rated at 350MHz bandwidth), so I could always add my Extron DVI300 to the mix and get DOS modes with proper sampling, proper scaling and no masking but at 60Hz . Or I can wait for OSSC Pro.

So many options and cables, so few power outlets and no perfect solution, yet.

EDIT : Ordered a new monitor Philips 252B9), which might make the OSSC alone enough to get "perfect" results. See Re: Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread

Pardon my skimming over this long thread but..

Has there actually been a solid answer for a good upscaler?
And not something expensive and boutique like a Framemeister or OSSC as that's way to much money just for casual DOS gaming IMO.

I got a HDMI cable for my MegaDrive and been looking at doing the same for my DX4-100.

Something that "just works". I'm not worried about running stuff like the Copper demo with their weird res swaps. Just an upscaler that produces a cleanish imagine with the least input lag, and works for most DOS games at their default resolutions.

Granted I still have a few good VGA monitors lying around. But a move to HDMI and a good flatscreen panel is undoubtedly nice. As my MegaDrive has shown me

The best cheap scaler is the extron RGB-hdmi 300. Pros: It's super cheap on ebay, it "just works" and it has great output quality.
Cons: adds a frame of lag, scaling is slightly soft, only outputs 6oHz

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-08-25, 01:32:

The best cheap scaler is the extron RGB-hdmi 300. Pros: It's super cheap on ebay, it "just works" and it has great output quality.
Cons: adds a frame of lag, scaling is slightly soft, only outputs 6oHz

+1 to that . It's DVI variant is another option which has essentially the same characteristics except digital audio (even firmware is shared between them).

Another feature that most digitizers or scalers, even much more expensive ones, do not have have is the ability to properly digitize 640x400 (line doubled 320x200) as 640x400 and 720x400 as 720x400 by setting the proper timings for each mode. I know of no other currently sub-300 US$ digitizer or scaler except for Extron RGB-HDMI and DVI 300 variants and OSSC that allow you to do that . Believe me when I say that I have tried a few (though obviously not all of them) . 😉

EDIT: Edited for clarity

Couldn't this (VGA to eDP LCD controller) https://aliexpress.com/item/33061411194.html + DP to HDMI adapter be used?

adalbert wrote on 2020-08-25, 09:52:

Couldn't this (VGA to eDP LCD controller) https://aliexpress.com/item/33061411194.html + DP to HDMI adapter be used?

I am not sure I understand what you would want to use it for and especially why .

a) It is meant to work with an eDP panel, so you would need a physical adapter to output DP for use with an active DP to HDMI adapter (a passive adapter likely won't work becausethe output is unlikely to be DP+)
b) It is meant to drive a 1366x768 panel, so anything input into it will likely get scaled to that resolution
c) It is almost guaranteed to handle 640x400 as 720x400 through VGA
d) It might stretch 4:3 DOS modes to 16:9 (who knows if there is any aspect control and unless your target monitor has one, you will get a stretched image)
e) If you the cost of this , an eDP to DP conversion harness and an active DP to HDMI converter, this does not look like a very good deal, IMHO

I'm just looking for any solution that would allow capturing VGA output of any quality , doesn't matter if it's scaled or not, it just needs to
1) be an complete image, no cropped out parts
2) work with every resolution without the need of manual adjustments
3) not cost 300 USD and be small enough to be embedded in a system

i get 2) and 3) with VGA to RCA converters and RCA usb capture card. The only problem is that DOS text mode is cropped on the left and right.

darry wrote on 2020-08-25, 13:02:

(a passive adapter likely won't work becausethe output is unlikely to be DP+)

OK, I thought all adapters were active and it would be just the matter of soldering cables to 30pin controller board output

adalbert wrote on 2020-08-25, 13:08:

I'm just looking for any solution that would allow capturing VGA output of any quality , doesn't matter if it's scaled or not, i […]
Show full quote

I'm just looking for any solution that would allow capturing VGA output of any quality , doesn't matter if it's scaled or not, it just needs to
1) be an complete image, no cropped out parts
2) work with every resolution without the need of manual adjustments
3) not cost 300 USD and be small enough to be embedded in a system

i get 2) and 3) with VGA to RCA converters and RCA usb capture card. The only problem is that DOS text mode is cropped on the left and right.

darry wrote on 2020-08-25, 13:02:

(a passive adapter likely won't work becausethe output is unlikely to be DP+)

OK, I thought all adapters were active and it would be just the matter of soldering cables to 30pin controller board output

Thank you for the extra details .

IMHO, with all the constraints, this is a bit of a tall order, especially since manual adjustment controls are usually a necessary feature in order ensure proper framing; that is why more expensive digitizers/scalers and all monitors with analogue input have them, though newer ones tend to have an auto-adjust button that does not always give perfect results, though. Hoping that a cheap device could manage to be automatically perfect (no cropping) at all resolutions from all VGA cards in that respect while even the expensive device manufacturers have not found to do so is a bit optimistic, IMHO . If you are lucky, you might find a device that just automatically works the way you want some of the time (some cards an resolutions), but you will have to go by trial and error and that can get expensive too .

Would using VGA video cards with TV out be an option (would probably cut off part of the frame at least in DOS) ?

Are you considering the VGA to eDP monitor controller because you have an HDMI device that you could use ? If that is the case, one of the small and inexpensive VGA 70Hz to HDMI 60Hz converters mentioned earlier by Prez might work for you (though no guarantees it would not cut or improperly position the frame at least in some resolutions) .

darry wrote on 2020-08-25, 17:26:

Are you considering the VGA to eDP monitor controller because you have an HDMI device that you could use ? If that is the case, one of the small and inexpensive VGA 70Hz to HDMI 60Hz converters mentioned earlier by Prez might work for you (though no guarantees it would not cut or improperly position the frame at least in some resolutions) .

Yes, I have Raspberry Pi with CSI - HDMI bridge and also a variety of USB HDMI capture devices, including $15 ones that showed up on the market recently and work surprisingly well. I would like to use RPi for network transmission of screen (I have some experience with low-latency video transmission, both wired and wireless) and simulate keyboard pressess and mouse over network, so the old PCs can be remotely controlled in graphic mode. Unfortunately most of them don't have cards with TV Out.

I will look again for the VGA-HDMI converters, but IIRC some people mentioned that you can get different devices in the same case and it may be hit or miss. I have one converter (white box) but it doesn't work in 70Hz mode.
I was thinking about those LCD control boards, because I recently got a point of sale LCD monitor (TVS LP-10R02 ) which displayed every mode offered by a 386 laptop through VGA in factory test mode. So I thought that getting a control board made for LCDs could give good compatibility.

adalbert wrote on 2020-08-25, 17:53:

Yes, I have Raspberry Pi with CSI - HDMI bridge and also a variety of USB HDMI capture devices, including $15 ones that showed u […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2020-08-25, 17:26:

Are you considering the VGA to eDP monitor controller because you have an HDMI device that you could use ? If that is the case, one of the small and inexpensive VGA 70Hz to HDMI 60Hz converters mentioned earlier by Prez might work for you (though no guarantees it would not cut or improperly position the frame at least in some resolutions) .

Yes, I have Raspberry Pi with CSI - HDMI bridge and also a variety of USB HDMI capture devices, including $15 ones that showed up on the market recently and work surprisingly well. I would like to use RPi for network transmission of screen (I have some experience with low-latency video transmission, both wired and wireless) and simulate keyboard pressess and mouse over network, so the old PCs can be remotely controlled in graphic mode. Unfortunately most of them don't have cards with TV Out.

I will look again for the VGA-HDMI converters, but IIRC some people mentioned that you can get different devices in the same case and it may be hit or miss. I have one converter (white box) but it doesn't work in 70Hz mode.
I was thinking about those LCD control boards, because I recently got a point of sale LCD monitor (TVS LP-10R02 ) which displayed every mode offered by a 386 laptop through VGA in factory test mode. So I thought that getting a control board made for LCDs could give good compatibility.

I considered using an LCD controller board as a digitizer/scaler at some point, but the ones I would have wanted were just too expensive (in small numbers) . If you do take that path or any other interesting one, do let us know how things turn out .

Best of luck .

darry wrote on 2020-08-25, 01:47:

+1 to that . It's DVI variant is another option which has essentially the same characteristics except digital audio (even firmwa […]
Show full quote

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-08-25, 01:32:

The best cheap scaler is the extron RGB-hdmi 300. Pros: It's super cheap on ebay, it "just works" and it has great output quality.
Cons: adds a frame of lag, scaling is slightly soft, only outputs 6oHz

+1 to that . It's DVI variant is another option which has essentially the same characteristics except digital audio (even firmware is shared between them).

Another feature that most digitizers or scalers, even much more expensive ones, do not have have is the ability to properly digitize 640x400 (line doubled 320x200) as 640x400 and 720x400 as 720x400 by setting the proper timings for each mode. I know of no other currently sub-300 US$ digitizer or scaler except for Extron RGB-HDMI and DVI 300 variants and OSSC that allow you to do that . Believe me when I say that I have tried a few (though obviously not all of them) . 😉

EDIT: Edited for clarity

Couple of questions on the DVI variant:

- I should be able to use a DVI-D to HDMI cable to connect one of these to my TV, yeah?
- When you say the DVI variant has "the same characteristics except digital audio" do you mean it has no facility for audio at all? That's what I seem to be seeing when I look at the device, just wanted to be sure I'm reading you correctly.

Pierre32 wrote on 2020-08-28, 04:17:

Couple of questions on the DVI variant: […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2020-08-25, 01:47:

+1 to that . It's DVI variant is another option which has essentially the same characteristics except digital audio (even firmwa […]
Show full quote

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-08-25, 01:32:

The best cheap scaler is the extron RGB-hdmi 300. Pros: It's super cheap on ebay, it "just works" and it has great output quality.
Cons: adds a frame of lag, scaling is slightly soft, only outputs 6oHz

+1 to that . It's DVI variant is another option which has essentially the same characteristics except digital audio (even firmware is shared between them).

Another feature that most digitizers or scalers, even much more expensive ones, do not have have is the ability to properly digitize 640x400 (line doubled 320x200) as 640x400 and 720x400 as 720x400 by setting the proper timings for each mode. I know of no other currently sub-300 US$ digitizer or scaler except for Extron RGB-HDMI and DVI 300 variants and OSSC that allow you to do that . Believe me when I say that I have tried a few (though obviously not all of them) . 😉

EDIT: Edited for clarity

Couple of questions on the DVI variant:

- I should be able to use a DVI-D to HDMI cable to connect one of these to my TV, yeah?
- When you say the DVI variant has "the same characteristics except digital audio" do you mean it has no facility for audio at all? That's what I seem to be seeing when I look at the device, just wanted to be sure I'm reading you correctly.

AFAIK, there are 3 variants a DVI one with no audio, a DVI one with audio and an HDMI one with audio . AFAIK, they are all the same expect for audio support and the connector type used for output (DVI or HDMI) . I use a DVI variant with a passive adapter to HDMI . If you don't need audio and don't mind using DVI/HDMI adapters when needed, the units are equivalent .

The only potential plus side to getting an HDMI variant is that it is likely newer and might have newer firmware, though no guarantees . Extron do not provide end-users with the ability to update firmware . Latest firmware I know of is 1.16 and is the same for all variants, AFAIK .

Cheers 😀 Eyeing a decent deal on one. It also occurs to me that it will be a good way to make use of my Dell 2007FP on retro machines.

Pierre32 wrote on 2020-08-28, 05:05:

Cheers 😀 Eyeing a decent deal on one. It also occurs to me that it will be a good way to make use of my Dell 2007FP on retro machines.

IMHO, the Dell 2007FP is good enough that you may not even need the Extron . The main advantage of the Extron with that monitor is that it would allow proper sampling of 640x400 (line-doubled 320x200) as 640x400 instead of as 720x400 . Other than that, the Extron may or may not have better upscaling that the 2007FP . I honestly have not compared .

darry wrote on 2020-09-03, 05:35:

Pierre32 wrote on 2020-08-28, 05:05:

Cheers 😀 Eyeing a decent deal on one. It also occurs to me that it will be a good way to make use of my Dell 2007FP on retro machines.

IMHO, the Dell 2007FP is good enough that you may not even need the Extron . The main advantage of the Extron with that monitor is that it would allow proper sampling of 640x400 (line-doubled 320x200) as 640x400 instead of as 720x400 . Other than that, the Extron may or may not have better upscaling that the 2007FP . I honestly have not compared .

It's funny, there is so much good said about the 2007FP but I don't seem to have this experience? Anything that isn't 1600x1200 is pretty ugly. I hoped that an 800x600 VGA signal would scale nicely at least, but it was as muddy as I'd expect from any other LCD panel running at a non-native res. Maybe I'm not finding the right settings?

Pierre32 wrote on 2020-09-03, 06:01:

darry wrote on 2020-09-03, 05:35:

Pierre32 wrote on 2020-08-28, 05:05:

Cheers 😀 Eyeing a decent deal on one. It also occurs to me that it will be a good way to make use of my Dell 2007FP on retro machines.

IMHO, the Dell 2007FP is good enough that you may not even need the Extron . The main advantage of the Extron with that monitor is that it would allow proper sampling of 640x400 (line-doubled 320x200) as 640x400 instead of as 720x400 . Other than that, the Extron may or may not have better upscaling that the 2007FP . I honestly have not compared .

It's funny, there is so much good said about the 2007FP but I don't seem to have this experience? Anything that isn't 1600x1200 is pretty ugly. I hoped that an 800x600 VGA signal would scale nicely at least, but it was as muddy as I'd expect from any other LCD panel running at a non-native res. Maybe I'm not finding the right settings?

The Extron seemed pretty sharp to me when upscaling (obviously not as sharp as line doubling on the OSSC) . I did not test the 2007FP much, so maybe its upscaling sucks in comparison .

I would have suggested an OSSC, but that only does 800x600 and up in passthrough (anything above 480p is not line-doubled) . If you are running 800x600 in Windows, your video card's scaling options (if available) may be better than the monitor's

Considering the relatively low price, I would try the Extron . You can always resell it if yoy don't like it .

In the future, something like the OSSC Pro might be an option (assuming it can line-double 800x600).

Extron is on the way and I look forward to testing! 😀 The OSSC Pro is certainly on the radar.

I *think* the regular non-pro OSSC hardware is capable of line doubling 800x600 as well, it's just not implemented in the FW

maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-09-03, 14:46:

I *think* the regular non-pro OSSC hardware is capable of line doubling 800x600 as well, it's just not implemented in the FW

I wonder why they would not implement it, then ? Line-doubled 640x480 looks fantastic, IMHO, line-doubled 800x600 would be great too .

I'm interested in doing some video recordings - doesn't have to be amazing picture quality, just the ability to capture 60fps. would the Extron mentioned above be good to pair with a so-so pci-e hdmi capture card?

also, when it comes to playing a game as well as capturing it, would i be better off getting a hdmi splitter AFTER converting or using a VGA splitter before converting? would I lose signal by splitting the vga signal to 2 outputs?

i'd be capturing 320x200/320x240/640x400/640x480/800x600/1024x768/1280x1024. audio is routed direct from a KVM to my main PC where the video capture card will be also.