Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-20, 19:43:

Then I also tried plugging in the Retrotink4k directly into the Datapath. (all captures here in 1080p no scaling, only cropping/ […]
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Then I also tried plugging in the Retrotink4k directly into the Datapath. (all captures here in 1080p no scaling, only cropping/canvas)
The thing is, that while in VCS it looks great, and if you capture the VSC window in OBS it also looks great in OBS.

The attachment TinkTODatapathViaVCS.PNG is no longer available

But if instead you switch OBS to capture the Datapath (with the tink) as source you get the halo again.

The attachment TinkTODatapathDirect.PNG is no longer available

So...I am qutie confused about what actually does create this halo effect. Or maybe it always does and the VSC software by @vbee does some internal magic even on Digital Signals to clean them up. But I have not activated any filters or whatever there. So I don't know why VCS does get a better picture than if capturing the digital signal directly via OBS.

The problem is the chroma subsampling on the Elgato. You would need to have it set ideally to RGB (8:8:8) or at least YCbCr (4:4:4) rather than YUY2 (4:2:2) to avoid that, assuming this is supported on the Elgato model you have.

You should not see this effect as much when capturing 320x200 VGA in YUY2 as this will have been line doubled to 640x400 by the source video card. Conversely, if you line double a 640x480 VGA source to 1280x960,using an OSSC for example, and capture that in YUY2, the effects will also be minimized.

EDIT: Maybe I missed something, but why is the Elgato set to capture at 1920x1080 ? Is there an external scaling step I missed in the capture workflow ? Or is that upscaling bring done post capture ?

There is a series of earlier posts in this thread where this is discussed in more detail.

darry wrote on 2024-07-20, 20:11:

The problem is the chroma subsampling on the Elgato. You would need to have it set ideally to RGB (8:8:8) or at least YCbCr (4: […]
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Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-20, 19:43:

Then I also tried plugging in the Retrotink4k directly into the Datapath. (all captures here in 1080p no scaling, only cropping/ […]
Show full quote

Then I also tried plugging in the Retrotink4k directly into the Datapath. (all captures here in 1080p no scaling, only cropping/canvas)
The thing is, that while in VCS it looks great, and if you capture the VSC window in OBS it also looks great in OBS.

The attachment TinkTODatapathViaVCS.PNG is no longer available

But if instead you switch OBS to capture the Datapath (with the tink) as source you get the halo again.

The attachment TinkTODatapathDirect.PNG is no longer available

So...I am qutie confused about what actually does create this halo effect. Or maybe it always does and the VSC software by @vbee does some internal magic even on Digital Signals to clean them up. But I have not activated any filters or whatever there. So I don't know why VCS does get a better picture than if capturing the digital signal directly via OBS.

The problem is the chroma subsampling on the Elgato. You would need to have it set ideally to RGB (8:8:8) or at least YCbCr (4:4:4) rather than YUY2 (4:2:2) to avoid that, assuming this is supported on the Elgato model you have.

The attachment Screenshot_20240720-155751-894~2.png is no longer available

You should not see this effect as much when capturing 320x200 VGA in YUY2 as this will have been line doubled to 640x400 by the source video card. Conversely, if you line double a 640x480 VGA source to 1280x960,using an OSSC for example, and capture that in YUY2, the effects will also be minimized.

There is a series of earlier posts in this thread where this is discussed in more detail.

Afaik there are no 4:4:4 capture cards available though, are there? (Edit: There are actually plenty of them available, just not 4k)
But I also don't get why the datapath gets a perfect picture, but aonly in VCS, and not if used as camera. Unless VCS always does some cleaning.

Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-20, 20:15:

darry wrote on 2024-07-20, 20:11:

The problem is the chroma subsampling on the Elgato. You would need to have it set ideally to RGB (8:8:8) or at least YCbCr (4: […]
Show full quote

Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-20, 19:43:

Then I also tried plugging in the Retrotink4k directly into the Datapath. (all captures here in 1080p no scaling, only cropping/ […]
Show full quote

Then I also tried plugging in the Retrotink4k directly into the Datapath. (all captures here in 1080p no scaling, only cropping/canvas)
The thing is, that while in VCS it looks great, and if you capture the VSC window in OBS it also looks great in OBS.

The attachment TinkTODatapathViaVCS.PNG is no longer available

But if instead you switch OBS to capture the Datapath (with the tink) as source you get the halo again.

The attachment TinkTODatapathDirect.PNG is no longer available

So...I am qutie confused about what actually does create this halo effect. Or maybe it always does and the VSC software by @vbee does some internal magic even on Digital Signals to clean them up. But I have not activated any filters or whatever there. So I don't know why VCS does get a better picture than if capturing the digital signal directly via OBS.

The problem is the chroma subsampling on the Elgato. You would need to have it set ideally to RGB (8:8:8) or at least YCbCr (4:4:4) rather than YUY2 (4:2:2) to avoid that, assuming this is supported on the Elgato model you have.

The attachment Screenshot_20240720-155751-894~2.png is no longer available

You should not see this effect as much when capturing 320x200 VGA in YUY2 as this will have been line doubled to 640x400 by the source video card. Conversely, if you line double a 640x480 VGA source to 1280x960,using an OSSC for example, and capture that in YUY2, the effects will also be minimized.

There is a series of earlier posts in this thread where this is discussed in more detail.

Afaik there are no 4:4:4 capture cards available though, are there?
But I also don't get why the datapath gets a perfect picture, but aonly in VCS, and not if used as camera. Unless VCS always does some cleaning.

The Datapath E1S, for example, can do full RGB (8:8:8) without resampling, which is the best option for this use case anyway. It only does 4:2:2 in YCbCr .

EDIT: For reference, clean captures like that are possible even using third party capture software, as long as one captures in RGB. Of course, VCS has other worthwhile advantages to using it.

For reference, some Magewell cards can do 4:4:4 , for example.

darry wrote on 2024-07-20, 20:11:

EDIT: Maybe I missed something, but why is the Elgato set to capture at 1920x1080 ? Is there an external scaling step I missed in the capture workflow ? Or is that upscaling bring done post capture ?

Missed this one.
The idea whas that the Elgato should capture the output of the retrotink, which is then 1920x1080. But while it looks perfect on the screen, it then generates these halos in the capture (for the examples I did, I used canvas though, not doing any scaling).
What I also noticed is that if I feed the digital 1920x1080 signal from the retrotink4k into the datapath (instead of the VGA signal) it will also lower the framerate significantly, which is shown in the VCS header. From around 60 to just 25, which would be bad even for a 30fps capture.

The Datapath E1S, for example, can do full RGB (8:8:8) without resampling, which is the best option for this use case anyway. It only does 4:2:2 in YCbCr .

It seems though that this option is not available in OBS. The top one (XRGB) does not produce a moving picture in OBS. But as mentioned above, using the datapath to capture just 25fps might not be super useful regardless. I actually just recorded something in 60 fps and coounted 24 different frames...which is not great.
Obviously that doenst happen if you just capture VGA directly with datapath.

Right now I am looking at how to get the most out of the retrotink4k. But it looks like you then also got to get one of these magwell cards for another 270€ to get the post possible quality out of the capture. Maybe it can be minimized if I use the retrotink to upscale to 4k, and then capture that, or even downscale it back to 1080p in OBS, but in order to minimize the halos. Will test.

Didn't EposVox recently review some USB capture stuff that could do 4:4:4 RGB/YUY at 1080p60?

Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-20, 21:26:

Missed this one. The idea whas that the Elgato should capture the output of the retrotink, which is then 1920x1080. But while it […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2024-07-20, 20:11:

EDIT: Maybe I missed something, but why is the Elgato set to capture at 1920x1080 ? Is there an external scaling step I missed in the capture workflow ? Or is that upscaling bring done post capture ?

Missed this one.
The idea whas that the Elgato should capture the output of the retrotink, which is then 1920x1080. But while it looks perfect on the screen, it then generates these halos in the capture (for the examples I did, I used canvas though, not doing any scaling).
What I also noticed is that if I feed the digital 1920x1080 signal from the retrotink4k into the datapath (instead of the VGA signal) it will also lower the framerate significantly, which is shown in the VCS header. From around 60 to just 25, which would be bad even for a 30fps capture.

The Datapath E1S, for example, can do full RGB (8:8:8) without resampling, which is the best option for this use case anyway. It only does 4:2:2 in YCbCr .

The attachment datapath setting.PNG is no longer available

It seems though that this option is not available in OBS. The top one (XRGB) does not produce a moving picture in OBS. But as mentioned above, using the datapath to capture just 25fps might not be super useful regardless. I actually just recorded something in 60 fps and coounted 24 different frames...which is not great.
Obviously that doenst happen if you just capture VGA directly with datapath.

Right now I am looking at how to get the most out of the retrotink4k. But it looks like you then also got to get one of these magwell cards for another 270€ to get the post possible quality out of the capture. Maybe it can be minimized if I use the retrotink to upscale to 4k, and then capture that, or even downscale it back to 1080p in OBS, but in order to minimize the halos. Will test.

Does the same think happen in OBS with your Datapath card (no working RBG option and same artefacts) ?

If so, could this be an OBS issue ?

darry wrote on 2024-07-21, 01:44:

Does the same think happen in OBS with your Datapath card (no working RBG option and same artefacts) ?
If so, could this be an OBS issue ?

Yeah, the screenshot from above is from the Datapath. XRGB is shown but cannot be used (at least not on 1080p, maybe I could try it on 480p, but then again at that point there would also be no point in using the tink in the first place I guess)
My Elgato 60S+ doesnt even offer XRGB in the overview.

NightSprinter wrote on 2024-07-21, 01:00:

Didn't EposVox recently review some USB capture stuff that could do 4:4:4 RGB/YUY at 1080p60?

Yeah, seems like for 4:4:4 on 1080p there are several cards. I don't have an overview though.

Elgato Game Capture Neo - Does not support 4:4:4
ASUS TUF Capture Box - Does not support 4:4:4
Elgato 4K X - 4:4:4 on 1440p60 and 1080p120 (@ 250€)
AVerMedia Live Gamer 4K 2.5- 4:4:4 on 1440p60 and 1080p120 (@ 250€)

I think it would only be useful to either go 4k or 1080p 60fps...but I haven't found the cheapest option for that yet.

Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-21, 02:19:

Yeah, the screenshot from above is from the Datapath. XRGB is shown but cannot be used (at least not on 1080p, maybe I could try […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2024-07-21, 01:44:

Does the same think happen in OBS with your Datapath card (no working RBG option and same artefacts) ?
If so, could this be an OBS issue ?

Yeah, the screenshot from above is from the Datapath. XRGB is shown but cannot be used (at least not on 1080p, maybe I could try it on 480p, but then again at that point there would also be no point in using the tink in the first place I guess)
My Elgato 60S+ doesnt even offer XRGB in the overview.

NightSprinter wrote on 2024-07-21, 01:00:

Didn't EposVox recently review some USB capture stuff that could do 4:4:4 RGB/YUY at 1080p60?

Yeah, seems like for 4:4:4 on 1080p there are several cards. I don't have an overview though.

Elgato Game Capture Neo - Does not support 4:4:4
ASUS TUF Capture Box - Does not support 4:4:4
Elgato 4K X - 4:4:4 on 1440p60 and 1080p120 (@ 250€)
AVerMedia Live Gamer 4K 2.5- 4:4:4 on 1440p60 and 1080p120 (@ 250€)

I think it would only be useful to either go 4k or 1080p 60fps...but I haven't found the cheapest option for that yet.

I'm going to have to experiment some more with this stuff again at some point .
I've never really done more than putz around with OBS.

It actually gets weirder.
I just tried to capture with datapath directly (using as cam) with VGA input:
running Duke Nukem 3D in 800x600

Capturing it in YUY2 800x600 - all is fine.
Switching to XRGB - It doesnt capture anything at all, unless you increase resolution to 1920x1080. In addition if flips the screen upside down

Then I unplugged it, and put in the digital signal from the retrotink4k in 1080p.
Works in XRGB but only until you do any changes. Once you do, you got a frozen frame until you switch away from xrgb again
after that is also doesnt work anymore in VGA if you switch again.
then switching away to yuy2, back to XRGB, screen flips again, putting in back the tink, and it works on XRGB...perfect picture.
Closing OBS...restarting OBS...and it is dead again.

So my solution for now:
I cleaned all the OBS scenes for any use of the camera itself as apparently that also reduced performance for that specific source even if inactive.
The XRGB for the cam setting for digital however stayed broken.

But now I can use VCS to capture the retrotink4k, and OBS then captures VCS.

So the full pipeline is:

A) Game on DOS Machine: 320x200 outputs as 720x400
|
B) Retrotink4k does the decimation and scaling to 1280x1000 outputs as 1920x1080p
|
D) Datapath via VCS gets the digital Signal in full RGB and 60 fps and displays it on screen. In theory could also modify it easily now as its digital and the output can be made very specific (e.g. you could just output as 1280x1001 to trigger a different process in VCS)
|
E) OBS now captures the VCS Screen

So this is quite convoluted, and I doubt its useful to many as it requires a Tink4k AND a Datapath but it does work, and it offers many knobs to easily adjust the output.

Advantages over just using Datapath via VCS:
-With VCS each time switching from 320x200 to 720x400 you would need to set a different preset and you would need to adjust how the signal is processed in the filter-graph. With retrotink it's just a push of a button on the remote.
-The Datapath has an inherent issue with capturing 640x480 as discussed earlier in this channel. Some lines go missing. This can be mitigated with the Extron and reduced to just 1 line. Retrotink 4k doesnt have the issue, perfect picture.
-In the last available version of VCS for Windows it doesn't correctly apply the 640x480 preset. So whenever you switch to that resolution, it always required fiddling manually adjusting the preset and doing so activating the setting. Ofc that doesnt happen either with the Tink4k.

And another little bit on the tink4k:

The quality of the before mentioned pipeline (scaling via retrotink 4k, then capturing via datapath, recording via OBS) results in slightly worse quality than capturing via VCS and scaling/recording via OBS. Now you could also just forward a custom resolution from the datapath, but output is saved per profile, and that means that automatically swapping resolutions wouldn't work anymore, eating up one advantage.
I think this could be further negated by taking the Datapath out of the equation and instead scaling to 4k and then capturing with the right capture card. But I have no way to test it without buying a capture card.

Blizz in the Tink Discord and EposVox on his discord mentioned that there are a few capture cards which could be used to capture 4k 60 fps 4x4x4
Elgato 4k Pro: 272,00 €
Elgato 4k60 Pro Mk2: 210,00 €
Avermedia Live Gamer 4k GC573: 140-165€

I will keep using the Datapath for capturing right now. But once I completely switch to 4k, I will then probably go for the Avermedia Live Gamer 4k GC573.

But just in case you want to get the best quality for capturing with the tink4k, keep in mind, you do also need a capture card, and ideally one of these 3 mentioned above. Otherwise things like a blue pixel next to a red pixel will look like garbage.

Was setting up profiles with the Retrotink4k and stumbled over an obscurity:
Used Toonstruck to set up the profile for 640x400 on "newer games". During the game everything looked fine, but then I went into the options menu...and everything turned green.

First thought it's an issue with the retrotink, but then plugged in the datapath again, and the same issue exists. However it does not occur on a real CRT. I also plugged in an Flatscreen from the early 2000s and it showed issues as well (even in the normal game).

But I didnt encounter the issue before and found out that my extron RGB 109 xi was actually correcting the signal. Whenever the extron is used, the signal can be displayed perfectly.

I don't know if this is caused by the Voodoo 3 I am using and whether the game is a unique case. But I found it quite strange and wanted to share and would like to hear if you had similar experiences.

Yeah, apparently the Voodoo cards with a 2D graphics core can be a bit of a pain on LCDs.

Youtube slightly spoils the picture (looks a little worse than in the file before uploading), but I think acceptable, recorded 640x480 via Belkin switch (since I have 2 different laptops connected to one monitor) + VP-200N splitter + Atlona AT-HD500 & HDMI to simple video recorder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojE0xPbbtNM

MAZter wrote on 2024-07-31, 17:51:

Youtube slightly spoils the picture (looks a little worse than in the file before uploading), but I think acceptable, recorded 640x480 via Belkin switch (since I have 2 different laptops connected to one monitor) + VP-200N splitter + Atlona AT-HD500 & HDMI to simple video recorder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojE0xPbbtNM

Youtube completely kills the quality for any upload lower than 2K, believe me, it does so much compression even at ultra HD that more often than not i ask myself if it's even worth it using bitrates higher than 15K when using H265 or AV1.
Trust me though, it completely destroyed your original video at sub HD resolution.

Yep, completely agree. Looks like garbage, and thats probably by youtube compression alone.
Even if you have 1080p footage it's better to upscale it to 4k before uploading.

Even if you just have a 1080p screen watching youtube, you see the difference between:
1. 1080p watched as 1080p
2. 4k watched as 1080p
3. 4k watched as 4k on a 1080p screen (best)

Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-31, 20:11:

Yep, completely agree. Looks like garbage, and thats probably by youtube compression alone.
Even if you have 1080p footage it's better to upscale it to 4k before uploading.

Good to know, ok, upscaled it, now looks closer to original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRaxnjGBQ54

MAZter wrote on 2024-08-01, 05:08:

Kordanor wrote on 2024-07-31, 20:11:

Yep, completely agree. Looks like garbage, and thats probably by youtube compression alone.
Even if you have 1080p footage it's better to upscale it to 4k before uploading.

Good to know, ok, upscaled it, now looks closer to original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRaxnjGBQ54

It looks a bit better but it's still insanely compressed, what are the options used in OBS?

iraito wrote on 2024-08-01, 08:48:

It looks a bit better but it's still insanely compressed, what are the options used in OBS?

What is it, OBS?

MAZter wrote on 2024-08-01, 12:33:

iraito wrote on 2024-08-01, 08:48:

It looks a bit better but it's still insanely compressed, what are the options used in OBS?

What is it, OBS?

How are you recording the captured footage?
You want a software with full control on color profiles, encoders, bitrate etc. my advice is to spend sometimes getting accustomed with OBS, learn how to record in high quality and then upload the footage.

https://obsproject.com/