ux-3 wrote on 2024-05-27, 12:41:

[...]

You basically would prefer 3D by Nvidia than by 3dfx? Both options cost a slot. I am not sure if the onboard AGP is so bad in DOS. Vesa detection with games was working fine, better than with the Riva. Riva can be helped with univbe though.

Odd, SiS 6326 (the core integrated into the 530) is known for scroll problems, flashing elements and not wanting to run DukeNukem 3D at all. Like most other nVidia chips, the Riva128 is one of the better behaved cards (see here) so using this offers 3D and better 2D. That said, a TNT2-M64 PCI or even GeForce2MX PCI would probably be cheaper, would definitely perform better and be easier to find. Of course you don't get GLide , but again, games that like a Voodoo will generally want something faster than a Pentium MMX. A compromise - albeit an expensive one - would be to go for a 3DFx PCI 2D+3D card, Banshee or Voodoo3.

Everyone seems to want a NIC. To transfer files while in Win98? Or for Lan gaming?

To transfer files, particularly in DOS. It's so much easier than messing around needing physical access to the (back of) the system. Everything I have, from XT to Ryzen, is networked. I run an FTP client on the Ryzen and servers on the old machines (tip: mTCP). That way I get a far better UI than anything on the vintage systems and minimal config needed. Also I don't need to run an ancient server on the new machine, just the latest version of Filezilla.

I wonder if it is possible to use both slots of a shared slot if the cards would fit. Like using ISA sound and small PCI NIC?

Unlikely. The backplate is the issue, sound cards tend to use all the real estate. If you really want to save a PCI card, you could look at a parallel port NIC. But do you really need that extra card?

[...]

The main point of this build would be to utilize the Pentium mmx with speed adjustments to reach even slow DOS games. Stretching up to the start of the 3dfx age, with a Voodoo1 or a Voodoo². I know that I can't cover the full win98 age, not even when I'd swap the K6-2 500 in. If I can run all of DOS and the early 98, it would be fine. When I got this board decades ago, I tested a V3 vs a banshee (both PCI) and discovered that the 3D benchmarks where already fully CPU limited. The results were identical.

Exactly. I'd drop the Win98 requirement. Yes, it can run it, but would it be a satisfying experience to run 1998 games on it? I doubt it.

[...]

Funny that you mention this. I have a prototype assembled (Asus P3B-F, rev 1.04 with 2x ISA, various CPUs from unlocked Deschutes to Coppermines, a V5 5500, SSD- and CF-adapters and all. I tend to run it with a P3-750 on a slotket, so I can go 500-1000 MHz from bios. While it can speed down to very slow, it can't reach speeds of 486-P90. But this machine is supposed to take over the stuff that can run on it.

Myabe try a Via C3 CPU?

I also still have boxed away an AOPEN MX6B EZ. It has 440BX, ESS Solo-1 on board, AGP, 2 PCI + 1PCI/AGP. It would be the perfect upward extension for the SS7 plan. While I can't run my Voodoo 3000 AGP on it stable, my V3 2000 AGP did work.
But the board can't be slowed down in a flexible way. I would lose DOS but gain nothing in comparison to what I have already with the big P3 rig.

Indeed. That's the challenge when trying to cover too many bases in one build.

While I fully agree with your general reasoning, the only board improvement that I would consider interesting at the moment would be a S(S)7 with more ISA slots but with 32GB HDD support and switchable onboard cache. Becasue it would give me a more satisfying sound setup and perhaps more flexibility in graphics. But it seems very hard to find such a thing for a reasonable price.

That's always a problem. I'd say keep the present board primarily for DOS and keep a lookout for Via MVP3-based boards. If you wait long enough and watch like a hawk affordable options pop up eventually.

dionb wrote on 2024-05-27, 17:38:

Odd, SiS 6326 (the core integrated into the 530) is known for scroll problems, flashing elements and not wanting to run DukeNukem 3D at all.

While not being a DukeNukem fan, I just downloaded the DukeNukem 3D demo, installed it, selected Vesa 800x600 and started. It seemed to work fine, I ran around a bit, fired bullets at helpless aliens. No Vesa driver was loaded by me. Any other suggestions as to what I should run/try?

But do you really need that extra card?

Personally, I had not planned for a NIC, when I have USB, a swapable SATA SSD and a CF card adapter.

After messing around with a lot of combinations and discovering a few new problems, I made some progress with the DOS98 part of sound.

I plan to use the onboard Solo-1 as my SBpro. I have added an ISA AWE32 nonPnP CT-2760 rev3. Changed to CT-3980 due to better S/N ratio. I have configured DOS98 so that the ESS does the classic 220/5/1 job while the wavetable is accessible on the AWE at 330. I still have some problems I could use a hand with, but at least this much works reasonably. I also have the ability to choose which card does the SB digital effects. What I can't do is to easily use the AWE OPL3 chip. As long as the onboard sound is activated, the onboard will play FM, no matter what target I set. I didn't realize this before. Fortunately, I kind of prefer ESS-FM anyway.
I hope that this setup will avoid the hanging notes issues, as the AWE will only be feeding the wavetable and not do digital in this SBpro/Wavetable scenario.

My current problems:
Soundblaster Mixerset freaks out when ESS card is active too. I can load existing settings but can't change them to anything working. I can work around that by disabling ESS, and changing/saving the setting, but meh... I kind of need a working mixer for the AWE that doesn't mess with the ESS at the same time.

I haven't yet testet genuine SB16 games or direct AWE32 support. I would like to run those on the AWE if possible. Windows 98se driver install is done. Aside from the two gameports, the drivers don't conflict.

I have 8 MB RAM for the AWE, but not yet figured out how to take advantage of them (or rather forgotten...). Some articles seem to suggest that I can spice up AWE32 sound, but I am not sure.

I have now switched to AWE32 CT-3980, which is a PnP card. It has the somewhat better DAC chip (1701-A), which makes a noticable difference. My AWE64 is no option really, as I want to install a wavetable. I don't yet have an external adapter. I might get one.

If I get this setup to work, I still have options to replace the onboard graphics if the need arises, I can add 3dfx V1 or V2² or USB2.0, or a SATA controller, or a Nic... Just not all 🙁

Your board supports the MMX and 100MHz bus...
I'd kick in the MMX and give it a spin at 100x2.5! Or maybe 100x3.0 if it can handle it. You'll be surprised how well it runs circles around a K6 at 300.

dionb wrote on 2024-05-27, 17:38:

Unlikely. The backplate is the issue, sound cards tend to use all the real estate. If you really want to save a PCI card, you could look at a parallel port NIC. But do you really need that extra card?

I hate losing a PCI/ISA

20min soldering work

Nice stuff 😀

Does it work?

I could really need some help with setting volumes on those two cards. The ESS seems to cooperate with ESSVOL alright. But the SB MIXERSET does change values for the ESS and messes up stuff on the AWE. I am sure there are better ways of doing this.

Unisound is only seeing the AWE, as the ESS is pci. So perhaps I should see if I can use unisound to adjust volumes for the AWE.

theelf wrote on 2024-06-05, 22:44:

I hate losing a PCI/ISA

Well, your idea looks great, BUT I have since realized that my wavetable will take the space, if I stick it on the ISA card 🙁
But thanks anyway for this good idea.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-06, 07:47:

I could really need some help with setting volumes on those two cards. The ESS seems to cooperate with ESSVOL alright. But the S […]
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I could really need some help with setting volumes on those two cards. The ESS seems to cooperate with ESSVOL alright. But the SB MIXERSET does change values for the ESS and messes up stuff on the AWE. I am sure there are better ways of doing this.

Unisound is only seeing the AWE, as the ESS is pci. So perhaps I should see if I can use unisound to adjust volumes for the AWE.

theelf wrote on 2024-06-05, 22:44:

I hate losing a PCI/ISA

Well, your idea looks great, BUT I have since realized that my wavetable will take the space, if I stick it on the ISA card 🙁
But thanks anyway for this good idea.

Thats why i used a network card for shared PCI, since are very small, normally dont interferes with other cards. in worst case you can use a IDE ribbon cable to put wavetable in another place

dionb wrote on 2024-05-27, 17:38:

Odd, SiS 6326 (the core integrated into the 530) is known for scroll problems, flashing elements and not wanting to run DukeNukem 3D at all.

I encountered the first game that does not run on the SIS 530/6326: It is "Warlord 2 Deluxe". Works on RIVA, provided I slow down the MMX to 486 level. So you are right and it affects games that I would want to access. One slot taken by Riva 128. If I get the audio to work, I can use the last slot for a Diamond Monster, so that all DOS glide titles are covered.

I am still searching for an ATX board, but the form factor is the most limiting issue. As I plan to use a P233mmx, I am looking at non-'super' boards as well. I probably end up with an SIS chipset again, as those seem affordable.

I also discovered that the AWE seems to link the regular address with the AWE internal wavetable. I have to pick A220 to have the internal wavetable at E620. The first AWE32 supported game needs the E620, won't work E640.
So if I want to have the cards work side by side, I need to have the AWE at A220. Sigh. On the other hand, the external NEC XR wavetable sounds better anyway.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-08, 07:21:

I am still searching for an ATX board, but the form factor is the most limiting issue. As I plan to use a P233mmx, I am looking at non-'super' boards as well. I probably end up with an SIS chipset again, as those seem affordable.

I would suggest a motherboard based on the Intel 430TX chipset instead.

This is just from my personal experience, but I had weird issues with some DOS games not starting at all on a SIS motherboard while working perfectly fine on the 430TX. Same CPU, same graphics and sound cards in both cases, same memory amount. No BIOS settings helped in that particular instance. The game in question was Stonekeep and the motherboard was PC Chips M571 (SIS 5598 chipset).

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2024-06-08, 07:30:

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-08, 07:21:

I am still searching for an ATX board, but the form factor is the most limiting issue. As I plan to use a P233mmx, I am looking at non-'super' boards as well. I probably end up with an SIS chipset again, as those seem affordable.

I would suggest a motherboard based on the Intel 430TX chipset instead.

Sure, I'd much prefer that as ATX board. If I find one for a good price, I'll take it. But in the meantime, I will see what I can do with a cheap SIS. At least it comes with 7 non-shared slots. This means 'options'.

This is just from my personal experience, but I had weird issues with some DOS games not starting at all on a SIS motherboard while working perfectly fine on the 430TX. Same CPU, same graphics and sound cards in both cases, same memory amount. No BIOS settings helped in that particular instance. The game in question was Stonekeep and the motherboard was PC Chips M571 (SIS 5598 chipset).

Thanks for the info, if Stonekeep is abandonware by now, I can probably find a copy and test it on my SS7 SIS chipset. Do you recall the others?

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-08, 10:37:

Thanks for the info, if Stonekeep is abandonware by now, I can probably find a copy and test it on my SS7 SIS chipset. Do you recall the others?

I don't think Stonekeep is abandonware, but you can get a digital copy from GOG.

As for the other games, I think Mortal Kombat 1 (floppy version) also wouldn't run on my SIS board. There were a few more games but I can't remember them off hand. I haven't done any detailed testing on the other games though, just Stonekeep since that's one of my favorite games from back in the day, and I absolutely needed it to run correctly on my DOS rig.

I just installed and ran "Stonekeep" of CD. It runs on my SIS5595 chipset (on Riva128). At least I get to start out in the dungeons with audio and video intro.

But perhaps you can tell me how to apply the patch to 1.2? I got the patch but have no idea how to use it... 🙁

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-08, 14:40:

I just installed and ran "Stonekeep" of CD. It runs on my SIS5595 chipset (on Riva128). At least I get to start out in the dungeons with audio and video intro.

Nice! Maybe it's specific to my motherboard or that particular SIS chipset.

But perhaps you can tell me how to apply the patch to 1.2? I got the patch but have to idea how to use it... 🙁

From what I recall, you just extract the contents of the ZIP file to the game's directory and overwrite everything. After that, run SK.BAT to start the game.

I ran into another 'peculiarity'.

You know, when the AWE32 driver installs in DOS, it ideally reports "4 of 4 devices configured...". From the moment I plug in the PCI Riva card, it only says "3 of 4 devices configured". (I disabled the onboard VGA). What are the 4 devices exactly, and which one just failed?

If I remove the card, all 4 are back.

Even more odd: It isn't the presence of the Riva but absence of the onboard. If I run onbard and Riva together, I still have 4 devices initialized.

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-08, 07:21:

I encountered the first game that does not run on the SIS 530/6326: It is "Warlord 2 Deluxe". Works on RIVA, provided I slow down the MMX to 486 level.

I just found the solution. I need the parameter -v to force VESA complience in this particular game. There also exists a patch for the cpu speed problem, which I could circumvent anyway. Onboard AGP is back in business.

I finalized the audio setup to my satisfaction:
Onboard cards (ESS Solo-1 and SIS 530) remain active. The remaining slots are used as follows:
ISA gets a Soundblaster AWE32 (CT3980). Sound is configured as such:
ESS: A240 I5 D1,
AWE32: A220 I7 D3 H5 P330 E620.
Wavetable sits on AWE32.
This way, FM will go to the yamaha opl3 on the AWE, no matter which card is selected.

For older games, the SOLO-1 is selected. Then FM will go to AWE32 OPL3 anyway. Voice goes to ESS. This removes the DMA clicking bug. And it removes the hanging notes problems when using AWE32 for added wavetable, as AWE is not used for digital effects at the same time.
If games can't deal with ESS or have no clicking bug issues or are SB16 or AWE32 compatible, they get to run on the awe completely.
It pretty well covers all check marks: OPL, hanging notes, clicking bug, SB16 compatible, low noise.
The only issue I can't fully fix is the scenario that AWE32 is running 16bit Audio and add-on wavetable. The card has the right chip to kill one type of hanging notes, but I could potentially still catch the other bug.

For the remaining two PCI slots, I decided on Diamond Monster 3D and maybe USB2.0. Voodoo² SLI is overkill, I rather use that elsewhere.

The thing works surprisingly well and flexible. As the board settings are jumpered, I can switch FSB and multiplier with one switch between 66/100 and 3.5x/2x, which is a nice feature. The board handles adapted SSDs too.
It turned out much better than I first expected.

HOWEVER: I did get a full S7 ATX board in the meantime, so the drama of making choices will repeat with even more options. 😀
I still keep this setup active, as a fallback option if the full ATX board develops problems.