wierd_w wrote on 2024-07-28, 16:46:

XTIDE XUB == XTIDE eXtended Universal Bios Its the software that lives inside an XTIDE card. It can also live inside a network i […]
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AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-28, 11:26:

wierd_w wrote on 2024-07-28, 10:21:

Assuming they have a means to write the eeprom (etherlink III lacks flashing function, iirc), the xtide xub is a better option than using a ddo.

We did not have such fun stuff bitd, so had to make do with ddo's (that came free with drives, conveniently!), but the shenanigans ddos do to prevent the real boot track getting overwritten can cause problems with properly lba aware oses.

Xtide xub is native stuff.

You used too many abbreviations, I didn't understand...

XTIDE XUB == XTIDE eXtended Universal Bios Its the software that lives inside an XTIDE card. It can also live inside a network interface card with a boot rom socket, like your Etherlink III.

DDO == Dynamic Drive Overlay. This is a software solution to allow large disk support on a system that lacks an LBA (Logical Block Addressing) aware implementation of software interrupt vector 13. (The DOS handler that deals with hard drives, and is the source of the 504mb limitation.) Several of these were available back in the day, but the biggest names were Ontrack Disk Manager (DM), and EzDrive. Vogons driver library has a copy of EzDrive available, along with a few others.

http://vogonsdrivers.com/index.php?catid=19

DDOs use the physical boot sector to load, as if they were an operating system. They then HIDE the first track of the drive to protect themselves, and present the NEXT logical track, as if it was the one with the physical boot sector on it. Operating systems that use software interrupt 13 wont know that this is not really the boot sector, and will write their information and partition table there instead. The DDO looks for this location, and chainloads your actual operating system after loading into memory and providing its version of the int13 handler.

Operating systems that know how to deal with the disk controller directly and can perform LBA addressing on their own (XP, NT4, Linux, etc) will have "Issues" with the fact that their boot sector is NOT the actual boot sector, among other things.

These kinds of issues are why I would suggest using the XTIDE's XUB with your NIC instead, assuming you have a way to write it into an EEPROM. (Electronically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory) Your Etherlink III lacks the circuitry to write/erase these chips. It can only read one that has been written to.

Ok to all... can i remove the EEPROM from my red card and install in my etherlink to try if it work? just swap and switch on the computer?

douglar wrote on 2024-07-28, 17:50:

Speedsys seems be designed to test ATA compatibile drives. It doesnt work with all SCSI controllers, or even all caching IDE co […]
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Disruptor wrote on 2024-07-28, 17:15:

It is not just this.
Several SCSI drives perform a linear verify test (much) slower than a linear read test!

Speedsys seems be designed to test ATA compatibile drives. It doesnt work with all SCSI controllers, or even all caching IDE controllers for that matter, since they don’t let the computer senf ATA commands directly to the drive.

But to get back on topic, for best performance:

• don’t connect your drive to an 8bit controller on a system that has a 16bit controller on the motherboard. this is a 2x performance gain.
• don’t run your code from a rom on an 8bit controller. shadow the slow rom into ram, either in the bios or by using a dos utility. this gives you a 3x performance boost becuase your CPU is no longer spending most of its time waiting for the next op code to arrive over a slow bus, 8 bits at a time.
• don’t pay too much attention to the hdd score or the linear verify score, since they are highly dependent on the firmware in the storage device being honest. Seek time and buffered read tell you the most about your system config. linear read tells you about the device. if you are seeing the “track to track” test on an ATA SSD, something in your setup is confusing speedsys.
• don’t expect the best performance on a 386 if you are using the 8088 version of XUB. Get the 386 build and use the config tool to optimize it for your system, even if you have a 386sx, there were enough new opcodes introduced that it helps. this should give you a 10-15%boost. might give you more if you had a dx instead of an sx.

So you advise me to get an EEPROM with the correct version of the XT-IDE firmware written on it... is there anywhere I can buy it? I don't have a programmer...

Second: how do I know if the version I have inside my EEPROM installed on the Red card is 8 or 16 bit or any other specific version?

Third: you told me about hiding the Bios, I'm honest, I really don't have the slightest idea how to do it.

ah!..tnks!

You can try it, yes.

You'll likely need to turn the boot rom socket on with the etherlink III 's config program though.

(No programmer)

Your red card has the needed circuitry to erase and reprogram an EEPROM. Pop a blank one in, boot from a floppy, and write the configured image to it.

Then pop it out, and put it in your nic.

You'll still need to turn the socket on with the 3com config utility.

Re: shadowing a rom

Not hiding, shadowing.

Emm386 (that comes with dos / windows) can do this.

add a

ROM=XXXX-XXXX

directive to your EMM386.EXE line in config.sys, were XXXX-XXXX is the start and stop of the rom's address space.

Emm386 will copy it into memory it will map there and set read only. It will then be accessed on the databus and not on the expansion bus. (and on a DX chip, at 32bits wide!)

You can down load the 386 rom and the tool that lets you configure and update the BIOS here:
https://www.xtideuniversalbios.org/binaries/r629/
If your BIOS doesn't let you shadow (aka copy the rom into RAM at boot time) emm386 is likely the best way to go.

I installed the rom but obviously does not see it, tomorrow I'm looking for the floppy utility to enable it. For now thanks, Vogons is exactly what the internet should be.

douglar wrote on 2024-07-28, 19:42:

You can down load the 386 rom and the tool that lets you configure and update the BIOS here:
https://www.xtideuniversalbios.org/binaries/r629/
If your BIOS doesn't let you shadow (aka copy the rom into RAM at boot time) emm386 is likely the best way to go.

the IBM Bios is absolutely minimal.

In this link i can find also the software to writhe on the EEPROM? Must i buy the exact same EEPROM already have? Atmel AT28C64B?

AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-28, 20:36:

the IBM Bios is absolutely minimal.

In this link i can find also the software to writhe on the EEPROM? Must i buy the exact same EEPROM already have? Atmel AT28C64B?

ROM size should match to the image you download.
And it should fit on your network card's socket.

When your BIOS does not support shadowing, just try to shadow it with EMM386

AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-28, 20:36:

douglar wrote on 2024-07-28, 19:42:

You can down load the 386 rom and the tool that lets you configure and update the BIOS here:
https://www.xtideuniversalbios.org/binaries/r629/
If your BIOS doesn't let you shadow (aka copy the rom into RAM at boot time) emm386 is likely the best way to go.

the IBM Bios is absolutely minimal.

In this link i can find also the software to writhe on the EEPROM? Must i buy the exact same EEPROM already have? Atmel AT28C64B?

Should work as long as you stick with the 8KB images (28C64 = 8KB) , which is all you need.

Probably best if you read the manual and follow the instructions:
https://www.lo-tech.co.uk/wiki/XTIDE_Universal_BIOS

Choose the BIOS binary file that most closely matches your system.

• If you have a V20 or V30 CPU, use the ide_xpl.bin file. This makes use of loop instructions not available on 8088/8086 and will provide a big performance increase on these systems.
• Even if you have an 'XT Class' 80286 based system, such as the Tandy 1000TL, use the ide_286.bin file.
• On slower machines, the multi-sector transfer capabilities of the storage device itself can greatly impact performance. Some devices, in particular many CompactFlash cards, allow the system to transfer only one sector at a time (512 bytes), which means the BIOS code must loop through sector read request code every 512 bytes. This is much slower than transferring a larger block of data in one go, as would be possible with a device supporting multi-sector transfers.
• Many 8-bit ISA 'XTIDE' derivatives support '16-bit transfers' using port mapping techniques that offload the effort of breaking 16-bit transfers into two 8-bit transfers to the system bus interface unit. This is known as 'Bus Interface Offload Mode' in the XTIDE Universal BIOS (BIU mode) and offers significant performance advantages for 8-bit ISA cards such as the original XTIDE card and most Lo-tech boards.
• When using the XTIDE Universal BIOS on later machines (386/486/Pentium), be sure to enable ROM shadowing in the BIOS for the region where the ROM is stored. For example, if the ROM is at C800h, enable ROM shadowing for C800h to CA00h (assuming standard 8KB build). This will greatly improve performance, since otherwise each instruction in the ROM code must be fetched over the slow 8-bit ISA bus, instead of from system memory or CPU cache. Note that ROM Shadowing will likely need to be disabled in order to (re)program the card.

I found these cards in my box. These are my thoughts: from top to bottom. PCI version: useless because Pentium computers see large hard drives. ISA without a brand, maybe IBM? I don't know what card it is but it could be the only interesting one, what do you think? The penultimate etherlink: it doesn't have sockets for eeproms so I think it's useless. The last 3COM has a chip that could be programmed with xt-ide?

The extra chip on the bottom 3c509 is an SRAM chip. Not a ROM.

As far as I'm aware, no ISA network card ever had the capability to program an EEPROM.

AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-29, 19:35:

I found these cards in my box. These are my thoughts: from top to bottom. PCI version: useless because Pentium computers see large hard drives. ISA without a brand, maybe IBM? I don't know what card it is but it could be the only interesting one, what do you think? The penultimate etherlink: it doesn't have sockets for eeproms so I think it's useless. The last 3COM has a chip that could be programmed with xt-ide?

Item to note: XTIDE is an ISA Rom. It won't work on a PCI card. PCI ROMS use a different layout.

akimmet wrote on 2024-07-29, 21:02:

The extra chip on the bottom 3c509 is an SRAM chip. Not a ROM.

As far as I'm aware, no ISA network card ever had the capability to program an EEPROM.

ok tnks

douglar wrote on 2024-07-29, 22:49:

AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-29, 19:35:

I found these cards in my box. These are my thoughts: from top to bottom. PCI version: useless because Pentium computers see large hard drives. ISA without a brand, maybe IBM? I don't know what card it is but it could be the only interesting one, what do you think? The penultimate etherlink: it doesn't have sockets for eeproms so I think it's useless. The last 3COM has a chip that could be programmed with xt-ide?

Item to note: XTIDE is an ISA Rom. It won't work on a PCI card. PCI ROMS use a different layout.

nice to know... ty.

And what about the biggest one?

Honestly, getting so e nics to work with a rom can be hard. If the rom is working in the xtide controller, you can use that to hold the rom. you just need to shadow it. youdont have to use the ide controller on the 8 bit card.

Or if this is all too hard, just use EZ drive 9.09

http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1900

It works really well with dos/win31/9x

The results shown so far track with reality.

XT-CF does 8-bit transfers, because CF cards can operate in byte mode. XT-IDE interleaves 16-bit transfers on to the 8-bit ISA bus. Neither are ideal, but the focus is on compatibility.

XUB or "XTIDE BIOS" with a normal 16-bit IDE card reads 16-bits at a time.

It's a no-brainer, use a 16-bit IDE card with XUB on a NIC or other carrier card, with the ROM shadowed if you can.

douglar wrote on 2024-07-30, 02:00:

Honestly, getting so e nics to work with a rom can be hard. If the rom is working in the xtide controller, you can use that to […]
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Honestly, getting so e nics to work with a rom can be hard. If the rom is working in the xtide controller, you can use that to hold the rom. you just need to shadow it. youdont have to use the ide controller on the 8 bit card.

Or if this is all too hard, just use EZ drive 9.09

http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1900

It works really well with dos/win31/9x

Why do you say it's difficult to use the xt-ide rom with the etherlink? If I use it in the etherlink I don't waste an isa slot and I would have with a single card both a network card and the possibility of mounting large disks. If I used my red card + the etherlink I would have occupied two slots instead of one

Had to hunt for it.

this is a self extracting archive for the Etherlink III's "Etherdisk".

It contains useful bits and bobs needed to get the damn thing working, including DOS packet drivers and the like.
The treasure you want, though, is the configuration utility.

You need it to enable the boot prom socket, set its size, and its address.
http://files.mpoli.fi/hardware/NET/3COM/3C5X9X.EXE

AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-30, 11:14:

Why do you say it's difficult to use the xt-ide rom with the etherlink? If I use it in the etherlink I don't waste an isa slot and I would have with a single card both a network card and the possibility of mounting large disks. If I used my red card + the etherlink I would have occupied two slots instead of one

I didn't say it "was difficult". I said it "can be difficult" If you have a simple NE2000 NIC that's already jumped for an open UMB and you have a EEPROM that exactly fits your image and works with your NIC and you know how to configure XTide Universal BIOS in a system that supports ROM shadowing in the BIOS, it can be easy.

But if you are using a "feature rich" network card like the 3c509, you are not familiar with the 3com tool, you don't know how to find open upper memory blocks, you are using a random EEPROM, and you are working with a funky PS/1 BIOS, well in that case, it can be difficult.

XT-IDE BIOS with 3com 3c509B

It's not THAT hard...

Fire up a copy of DOS 6.22 with no memory managers loaded. (No himem.sys, and no emm386.exe!!)

Then, run MSD. (It comes with dos 6.22)

Look at the memory information section, and look for a chunk of memory above CC00 (where the VGA bios lives) that is free, and the correct size. Write that information down.

Use the etherlink iii config utility on the etherdisk archive I dug up. Set the size of the PROM socket and its address, to what is appropriate for your EEPROM, and what you wrote down.

Pop the flashed EEPROM into the socket. Turn it on.

Cross fingers.

douglar wrote on 2024-07-30, 12:34:

I didn't say it "was difficult". I said it "can be difficult" If you have a simple NE2000 NIC that's already jumped for an o […]
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AlessandroB wrote on 2024-07-30, 11:14:

Why do you say it's difficult to use the xt-ide rom with the etherlink? If I use it in the etherlink I don't waste an isa slot and I would have with a single card both a network card and the possibility of mounting large disks. If I used my red card + the etherlink I would have occupied two slots instead of one

I didn't say it "was difficult". I said it "can be difficult" If you have a simple NE2000 NIC that's already jumped for an open UMB and you have a EEPROM that exactly fits your image and works with your NIC and you know how to configure XTide Universal BIOS in a system that supports ROM shadowing in the BIOS, it can be easy.

But if you are using a "feature rich" network card like the 3c509, you are not familiar with the 3com tool, you don't know how to find open upper memory blocks, you are using a random EEPROM, and you are working with a funky PS/1 BIOS, well in that case, it can be difficult.

XT-IDE BIOS with 3com 3c509B

The only my BIG Problem is the lack of time to study and try.... for example now i must quit this "game" for almost a week...

thanks a lot