Rincewind42 wrote on 2022-08-25, 00:39:

I'll still get those S754 board if I ever want to do an XP build, they're worth $5 bucks each.

Note that the Win9x GPU performance and SATA issues only affect (certain) VIA chipsets. Socket 754 boards based on SiS, ULi and Nvidia chipsets should still be usable, though they might have other issues of their own e.g. Nforce's notoriously bad DOS compatibility.

Under ideal conditions, socket 754 and socket 939 systems are fast, power efficient and very quiet. They can also use modern AM4/AM5 coolers and work fine with new PSUs, while retaining full Win9x support. Even DOS gaming is possible, if you pair a compatible chipset (not Nforce) with an ESS Solo-1 or a Yamaha YMF7x4 sound card.

I still wouldn't recommend a socket 754/939 system for Win9x gaming to someone who's just starting out. But with a lot of research, and using the most compatible parts, you can get a really nice retro rig for very little money.

smtkr wrote on 2022-08-25, 01:42:

Isn't poor imagine quality part of the retro experience? 😁

Definitely not part of mine because like I said I used a Matrox G550 for a long time back in the day and a really nice 21" CRT monitor 😀 I tried an integrated GPU *once* in my life after having used the Matrox for a while, and I couldn't bring the board back fast enough to the shop, demanding a refund, I was so appalled by the 2D image quality... Not into replicating that experience with my CRTs 😀

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-08-25, 03:29:

Note that the Win9x GPU performance and SATA compatibility issues only affect (certain) VIA chipsets. Socket 754 boards based on […]
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Rincewind42 wrote on 2022-08-25, 00:39:

I'll still get those S754 board if I ever want to do an XP build, they're worth $5 bucks each.

Note that the Win9x GPU performance and SATA compatibility issues only affect (certain) VIA chipsets. Socket 754 boards based on SiS, ULi and Nvidia chipsets should still be usable, though they might have other issues of their own e.g. Nforce's notoriously bad DOS compatibility.

Under ideal conditions, socket 754 and socket 939 systems are fast, power efficient and very quiet. They can also use modern AM4/AM5 coolers and work fine with new PSUs while retaining excellent Win9x compatibility. Even DOS gaming is possible, if you pair a compatible chipset (not Nforce) with an ESS Solo-1 or a Yamaha YMF7x4 sound card.

I still wouldn't recommend a socket 754/939 system for Win9x gaming to someone who's just starting out. But with a lot of research and compatible parts, you can get a really nice retro rig for very little money.

Cool, I'll just go with my original plan then and get the two Socket 754 boards in addition to the Gigabyte P4 one and experiment. I'm not against trying a few things, and that's the only way to learn for sure, I just wanted to avoid obvious and silly dead-ends (e.g. not in the mood to deal with PSU problems with the Socket A boards).

I already have a nice MMX 200 machine for the DOS stuff paired with a 15" monitor. So this one will be for the Win98 stuff only with the 17" CRT. I'll definitely get an SB Live! (I want EAX support) and a cheap GeForce4 MX440, plus a SATA Seagate drive that I can limit to <127GB, plus a SATA->IDE converter. That will give me all I need to experiment with all three boards and I'm sure I'll get a usable and nice machine out of all this while keeping the cost low.

Pentium 4 also can be in S775-platform flavor with AGP, Intel chipsets and so on 😉

Rincewind42 wrote on 2022-08-25, 00:39:

I want to stay away from Socket A stuff because of the 5V rail problem.

There is no 5V rail problem with boards having 12V 4pin connector which is all late Socket A boards (nForce 2, KT600).

AlexZ wrote on 2022-08-25, 08:51:

Rincewind42 wrote on 2022-08-25, 00:39:

I want to stay away from Socket A stuff because of the 5V rail problem.

There is no 5V rail problem with boards having 12V 4pin connector which is all late Socket A boards (nForce 2, KT600).

Good to know, but the boards I could buy for cheap have VIA chipsets.

By the way, just found a video by Phil where he sets up a Win98SE box with one of the the Athlon64 boards on my list, the Gigabyte K8-VM800M. That's definitely promising!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzm29tJ2_14

AlexZ wrote on 2022-08-25, 08:51:

There is no 5V rail problem with boards having 12V 4pin connector which is all late Socket A boards (nForce 2, KT600).

Definitely not all. I have many KT600 and even KT880 boards, and none of them have the 12V connector.
I think the 12V connector was indeed more prevalent on nForce 2 boards.

Either way, a PSU such as the Seasonic S12III 550W (or even better, the older S12II 520W - if one can still find it in stock) can generally handle most (lower speed) Athlon XP builds just fine (stay away from the top of the line Bartons, though!). You can even throw in a GeForce 4 Ti 4200 (which is pretty power hungry as well) and it will still work fine. Another option is to use a video card that has an external power connector, but be careful - not all video cards with an external connector draw their power from the 12V rail. At least some (like the Leadtek WinFast A350XT) draw most of the required current from the 5V rail (through the molex connector).

Rincewind42 wrote on 2022-08-25, 10:40:

By the way, just found a video by Phil where he sets up a Win98SE box with one of the the Athlon64 boards on my list, the Gigabyte K8-VM800M. That's definitely promising!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzm29tJ2_14

I can confirm that the Gigabyte K8-VM800M is a great board.
TL;DR, not sure if you are also interested in DOS, but VIA is the better option nowadays, allowing for a VERY flexible retro build. The K8-VM800M with an Athlon 64 3200+, a GeForce 3 / GeForce 4 Ti and a Yamaha YMF7x4 sound card will allow you to play a huge percentage of games released between 1981 and 2002.

Here's a socket 939 video for DOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtyLkfvozck

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-25, 12:06:

I can confirm that the Gigabyte K8-VM800M is a great board.

Great, that's good to hear that you have good experiences with it. This will be a $5 well-spent then! 😜

bloodem wrote on 2022-08-25, 12:06:

TL;DR, not sure if you are also interested in DOS, but VIA is the better option nowadays, allowing for a VERY flexible retro build. The K8-VM800M with an Athlon 64 3200+, a GeForce 3 / GeForce 4 Ti and a Yamaha YMF7x4 sound card will allow you to play a huge percentage of games released between 1981 and 2002.

Nope, like I mentioned, I already have a very nice i430HX / MMX 200 / S3 Virge DX / ESS 1868F machine for DOS & Win3.1. I like to have two separate machines for the DOS and the Win98 stuff and I have the space, so why not 😀

Found an interesting old discussion regarding the Matrox G400 vs Voodoo 3 image quality:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.periphs. … x/c/NdoSLFEzPL0

Man, I'm so attached to the Matrox cards, and I found a G400 (non-MAX) for a good price, I think I just have to buy it 😀

Rincewind42 wrote on 2022-08-26, 01:19:

Found an interesting old discussion regarding the Matrox G400 vs Voodoo 3 image quality:
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.periphs. … x/c/NdoSLFEzPL0

Man, I'm so attached to the Matrox cards, and I found a G400 (non-MAX) for a good price, I think I just have to buy it 😀

I have both a Matrox G400 and a Voodoo3. In 1024x768 and below, their image quality is somewhat comparable. But if you go to 1280x1024 and higher, the Matrox is noticeably better, especially if you're using an LCD monitor where imperfections become much more noticeable. That said, both of those cards cannot deliver sufficient 3D gaming performance in such high resolutions, for all but the oldest titles, but their 2D does looks stellar.

Matrox G400 also had EMBM support way back in 1999, something that cards from other manufacturers introduced much later. This effect can look nice though it seems to have been sparsely used in most Win9x era games. On that note, EMBM is not supported on MX440 cards since they are based on the GeForce 2 architecture.

Okay, so the Gigabyte K8-VM800M seems to be working fine. The northbridge cooler is missing, so I'll need to find one before I'll start using it in anger. Seems like it was $5 well spent!

The ABit NF8-V needs more work, it powers up but there's no VGA output. Tried all the RAM sticks I have, but no go...

Question about the coolers, my understanding is that since Athlon 64 all AMD clip-on coolers are compatible, right? Based on what I've read, compatibility problems only arise with the coolers that must be mounted to the motherboard directly.

I'm thinking of getting a "be quiet! BK030 Pure Rock Slim 2" because the cooler I got with the board with seems a bit dodgy (someone just screwed a smaller AMD fan into an ordinary stock aluminium heatsink, ugh). The specs state this is for AM4/AM5 only, but it's a clip-on design, as you can see on the linked YouTube video, so it should not matter right? It's actually compatible with all AMD sockets from 754 onwards, am I correct here?

https://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler/2248

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjr_YmcS3II

EDIT: Answering my own question, I found a comprehensive answer here (basically confirms what I wrote above):
Re: Recommendations for decent cooler for Socket A/462 Athlon 3200+

Update: the Gigabyte K8-VM800M is chugging along very nicely. It's a Rev2.0 board and it has the VIA 8237R Plus chipset, which means it works perfectly fine with my PNY 120GB SATA III SSD. Interestingly, on the Gigabyte website VIA 8237R Plus is listed only for the VM800M-RH, but not for the VM800M (without -RH) Rev2.0... Go figure 🤷

I saw people had some problems with the AGP speed or something, I had zero issues like that, everything just works fine with my Matrox G400.

I'm using a 5x multiplier with the Athlon64 3200+, so I'm getting 1000MHz real CPU speed instead of 2200MHz with the 11x one is supposed to use. Still plenty fast for any game up until 2001 that I'm interested in, and it runs about 10-15C cooler even with a low RPM fan adapter.

Overall, I'm really happy with how it turned out, thanks to everybody for the tips & recommendations. Next thing is to try to get the ABit NF8-V working. Time to give it a good wash, then we'll see what happens...

Congrats!