ott wrote on 2025-03-04, 07:05:

I noticed that games with X-RAM support load samples in OGG format (vorbis?)
Does this mean hardware decoding OGG on X-Fi chip?

OGG is a container, with several standard audio codec options and additional ones that are not standard, though one can use whatever one wants, so long as the software is working properly. The actual codec used with game files would probably/possibly/likely be MP3, though there are certainly others.

I'm currently replaying Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, and I thought I'd share some of my experiences with its EAX implementation here. Relevant bit from the gaming thread:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-03, 09:16:

I've mentioned this before, but I really like the EAX implementation in this game. It's particularly noticeable during the first level. For starters, the echo effects in the cave that you enter at the very beginning are superbly done. When you get inside the enemy compound, you start hearing the muffled screams of the tortured prisoner, which get louder and clearer as you approach.

Outside, you can hear raindrops hitting the fabric of the tents that the enemies are using. It sounds very realistic, especially when you're standing inside one of those tents. And while you're climbing the lighthouse itself, the machinery sounds fittingly echo throughout the interior, and the metal staircase creeks under Sam's weight. Yeah, this entire level is a fantastic EAX showpiece.

In short, you definitively want to play this game with EAX enabled.

What's the best method to enable EAX on Windows 11? I am currently rocking a Sound Blaster ZxR, but I also have an X-Fi Titanium HD. There's so many mixed messages saying that the X-Fi has some kind of hardware that makes it better, others say the software EAX is fine or even less problematic. Some say it's best used with CMSS-3D Headphone, while others say new HRTF solutions are better. The ZxR software is definitely more user friendly, and there are other things to like about it such as software switching out of headphone mode, a better amp, and a much improved SNR. I dunno, I just feel like it's a lot to comb through to get to the truth of the matter. There's no recent demos for comparison. There's no video content showing what kind of hoops you have to jump through to get it working well in games for one method vs another. I'm sure I got the best hardware to do it with one of these cards, and I'd kinda like to try without installing and uninstalling drivers and hoping I'll be able to tell the difference 20 minutes later, then going back...

DeadOfKnight wrote on 2025-03-07, 04:31:

What's the best method to enable EAX on Windows 11? I am currently rocking a Sound Blaster ZxR, but I also have an X-Fi Titanium HD. There's so many mixed messages saying that the X-Fi has some kind of hardware that makes it better, others say the software EAX is fine or even less problematic. Some say it's best used with CMSS-3D Headphone, while others say new HRTF solutions are better. The ZxR software is definitely more user friendly, and there are other things to like about it such as software switching out of headphone mode, a better amp, and a much improved SNR. I dunno, I just feel like it's a lot to comb through to get to the truth of the matter. There's no recent demos for comparison. There's no video content showing what kind of hoops you have to jump through to get it working well in games for one method vs another. I'm sure I got the best hardware to do it with one of these cards, and I'd kinda like to try without installing and uninstalling drivers and hoping I'll be able to tell the difference 20 minutes later, then going back...

Just for fun I bought the Quake 4 anniversary edition sold on the Windows 11's Microsoft store and the Titanium HD (with the right drivers) still hilariously lets you turn EAX on, but I forgot if it truly worked ingame or not.
I don't think the Sound Blaster ZxR has the E-mu 20K chip inside which is the "kind of hardware that makes it better" therefore it is a pointless card when talking about EAX hardware acceleration. Stick to the Titanium HD.
I am part of this dark sect that despises CMSS-3D so feel free to make your own experience with everything toggled on and off although on Windows 11 you'll be forced to go trough some ALchemy/DSOAL emulation layer.

Quake 4 sounds reasonably well via DSOAL and you'll even like more the 3D positional sound than CMSS-3D (it's more like newer options like Dolby Headphones or Windows Spatial Sound). The problems in my case were:

• Some background sounds sounding full volume everywhere instead of attenuating with distance (i.e. fluorescent tubes) which can be somewhat fixed creating an alsoft.ini text file with content:
  Copy code to clipboard

  1[reverb]
  2boost = -6
  

• Voices sound too low, specially when the character is in front of you. If you turn your "virtual ear" toward them you'll hear them somewhat louder. On real Creative cards it's not much louder anyway.

Also remember to apply the EAX patches that fix some problems in idtech4 games (Doom 3, Quake 4, Prey).

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-05, 08:13:

In short, you definitively want to play this game with EAX enabled.

Yesterday I had one of these moments, I was playing Unreal 2 with headphones (I don't like it too much but wanted to see what difference the enhanced sound could make). I loaded my savegame from the second map where you approximate a pond, and then I suddenly heard the grunt of a Skaarj clearly coming from my right side, at 45º aprox, so I turned spot on and confronted it. Seconds later I realized how amazingly well positioned that sound was so I just had to react instinctively.

mgtroyas wrote on 2025-03-09, 12:23:

Yesterday I had one of these moments, I was playing Unreal 2 with headphones (I don't like it too much but wanted to see what difference the enhanced sound could make). I loaded my savegame from the second map where you approximate a pond, and then I suddenly heard the grunt of a Skaarj clearly coming from my right side, at 45º aprox, so I turned spot on and confronted it. Seconds later I realized how amazingly well positioned that sound was so I just had to react instinctively.

Yeah, that's the beauty of good positional audio. You can often tell where the enemies are by sound alone.

In games that handle this really well, you can even make out elevation differences, e.g. whether an enemy is above or below you. I think Prey (2006) and Battlefield 2 can do this when using the CMSS-3D Headphone mode on an X-Fi card.

Didn't CMSS-3D somehow degrade sound quality? Or its only do that in non-EAX games?

KainXVIII wrote on 2025-03-09, 17:40:

Didn't CMSS-3D somehow degrade sound quality? Or its only do that in non-EAX games?

Personally, I turn off CMSS when using my 5.1 surround speakers.

But with headphones, it can be interesting to leave it on auto, when using an X-Fi card. Not sure if EAX 5.0 games have some special support for CMSS-3D or not, but I kinda like how it sounds. Try it in Battlefield 2 and hear the results for yourself. Here's how I set it up when using headphones:

And here's how Creative describes the CMSS-3D Headphone mode specifically:

For reference, that description was taken from the X-Fi Demo Disc.

KainXVIII wrote on 2025-03-09, 17:40:

Didn't CMSS-3D somehow degrade sound quality? Or its only do that in non-EAX games?

From what I remember CMSS-3D always starts from a stereo feed and will therefore make up (upmixes like how Creative wants to call it) some inaccurate approximations of an HRTF profile.
To my ears anything thrown at a CMSS-3D process instantly turns muddy and not enjoyable. I believe many Windows XP era games came with their own HRTF solutions so it's always better to prioritize those instead.

KainXVIII wrote on 2025-03-09, 17:40:

Didn't CMSS-3D somehow degrade sound quality? Or its only do that in non-EAX games?

In my experience, turning on CMSS-3D raises the noise floor and all sound seems degraded as though playing at a lower bitrate. Flat sounds are given significant depth in a good way, but anything that already has depth is exaggerated to the point of sounding like you're in an underwater echo chamber or something. I didn't experiment enough to really know the best way to use it, but I'm pretty sensitive to fake surround sound. It's not so bad once you get use to it, but the second I turn it on I'm usually like "nope, nevermind". However, the opposite is also sometimes true. If I give myself a chance to get used to it and then turn it off, I'll often turn it back on. This is not specific to CMSS-3D though, this is for all virtual surround.

SansPlomb95 wrote on 2025-03-09, 11:49:

Just for fun I bought the Quake 4 anniversary edition sold on the Windows 11's Microsoft store and the Titanium HD (with the right drivers) still hilariously lets you turn EAX on

This is great! Usually, updated versions of games and remasters are left without EAX features.
What X-Fi drivers do you use?

This Quake 4 port from 2022 is so minimal they didn't bother removing some older features from it which is to our advantage.
I don't remember which driver I used when I temporarily used the Titanium HD on a Win 11 PC just for science, probably one from Daniel K.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-09, 17:48:

Personally, I turn off CMSS when using my 5.1 surround speakers. […]
Show full quote

KainXVIII wrote on 2025-03-09, 17:40:

Didn't CMSS-3D somehow degrade sound quality? Or its only do that in non-EAX games?

Personally, I turn off CMSS when using my 5.1 surround speakers.

But with headphones, it can be interesting to leave it on auto, when using an X-Fi card. Not sure if EAX 5.0 games have some special support for CMSS-3D or not, but I kinda like how it sounds. Try it in Battlefield 2 and hear the results for yourself. Here's how I set it up when using headphones:

The attachment CMSS-3D_Controls.jpg is no longer available

And here's how Creative describes the CMSS-3D Headphone mode specifically:

The attachment CMSS-3D_Description.jpg is no longer available

For reference, that description was taken from the X-Fi Demo Disc.

Thanks for the info, guys! I only have Audio Control Panel installed for now so there are not a lot of info here..

Hi, just wanted to defend CMSS-3D and 3D sound on stereo/headphones in general, comparing it to 3D graphics rendering on a 2D screen.

In an ideal world we would have 3D spatial hologram projectors and all polygons would be simply drawn in space and our eyes would see a real scene that we could browse moving our heads (iMax like?) and bodies (real 3D hologram) around, but as we generally use 2D screens (even on VR) textured polygons have to be projected on that plane (distortion, perspective correction) and then because of the limited resolution of the screen (in pixels) and lack of complexity on geometry and resolution on textures (because of CPU/GPU limitation) there's aliasing and they have to be smoothed both in 2D (bilinear) and 3D (trilinear and anisotropic). Also boundaries need to be smoothed (full-screen antialiasing). The result is each polygon texture is heavily distorted from just opening it on Paintbrush, but the total image is 3D coherent.
- In contrast, a 2D game on a 2D screen always has pixel-perfect sprites. But the sprites could have already 3D pre-rendereding which usually look good on 2D engine (i.e. Abe's Odyssey) but worse/fake on a 3D rendered engine (i.e. Carmageddon).

In the sound realm, 2D sound is stereo, 3D spatial hologram projectors are surround speakers, pre-rendered sprites are pre-processed sound effects, display resolution is sample rate, which creates aliasing (noise), CPU power limits sound processing precision which adds up error on each sequential sound transformation (more noise), and all the distortion of the sound needed when projecting from stereo sample to 3D stage is also comparable (psychoacoustics mimicking like HRTF, occlusions, reverbs, etc).
- So yes, individual sounds are not as clear as played in stereo, but is the price to get a cohesive 3D sound scene, yes pre-processed sounds sound weird when adding additional 2D to 3D transformation (that's something game developers should have in account, but it's difficult as some players will play with 3D sound and others with simple stereo), and yes with surround speakers this 2D to 3D convolution in not needed at all (well as games don't support ceiling speakers like in Atmos, elevation should still be simulated). And no, 3D sound is not simple stereo upsampling, as the 3D source position of the sounds in space, and geometry and materials of the scenarios are used to build the 3D sound scene.

Once said that, I find CMSS-3D pretty light on introducing additional distortion to sounds, compared to modern 3D Sound technologies that create a more accentuated 3D positioning (I personally find it fake, but I happen to have very high sound positioning ability on real life) at a cost of more grainy/noisy sound quality.

CMSS3D only works well in a "well-controlled audio environment", i.e. headphones.
It increases distortion at high frequencies, but... it shouldn't be audible unless your headphones emphasize those high frequencies.
I.e. their frequency response corresponds to the Harmon curve (and it is not a straight line at all).
That's why it all died, because it is too complicated and not intuitive for the average user.

With CMSS3D technology enabled, you should clearly hear forward/backward and up/down directions.

Literally, close your eyes and point your hand at the source of the sound.

PS
MPC-HC (Wasapi exclusive mode)-> X-fi (CMSS3D + Equalizer for headphones) +Bluesky Frame Rate Converter ( for native monitor refresh rate) for Radeon card only
This is the best solution for watching movies.
It is very difficult to achieve such feelings.
https://bluesky-soft.com/en/BlueskyFRC.html

Y'all are making me want to swap out my ZxR back to the TiHD and get an external sound card like an x4 for modern games.

DeadOfKnight wrote on 2025-03-12, 23:48:

Y'all are making me want to swap out my ZxR back to the TiHD and get an external sound card like an x4 for modern games.

There is a level in Space Marine 2 where a Tyranid attacks from stealth.
With X-Fi this was no problem at all - the sound location is just great.

CMSS3D is not related to dead technologies like EAX.
And works great in any application that outputs 5.1-7.1 sound.

PS. I have the impression that everyone either listens to their "some own implementation" of X-Fi, or doesn’t understand what it is at all.
Has anyone reached this menu in Windows, and what should be selected for X-Fi?

Or the following menu.
Should I disable the "software emulation" of the CMSS3D in the Windows sound path?
Or this will do.

shevalier wrote on 2025-03-13, 07:06:

Has anyone reached this menu in Windows, and what should be selected for X-Fi?

I haven't bothered with this too much, but in the old days, there were some forum posts which indicated that the optimal way to use CMSS-3D with headphones when playing older games was as follows. Note: this was intended for WinXP, so I'm not sure if it applies for Vista and up.

If a game specifically supports surround speakers (e.g. in Neverwinter Nights you can select up to 7.1 from its Sound Options) then it's supposedly best to do this when using headphones. Under the WinXP Control Panel select 7.1 speakers. However, in the Creative Console Launcher select Headphones and untick the "Synchronize with Control Panel" checkbox. Then, on the CMSS tab, turn on MacroFX and Elevation Filter manually instead of leaving them on Auto.

I have played a few games like this and it seemed to work fine. But again, I haven't tested this extensively as I prefer to use my 5.1 speakers, since wearing headphones for longer time periods feels uncomfortable to me. I also can't say if this method is still needed for EAX 5.0 games. In fact, Creative's official audio guide for Battlefield 2142 recommends using the Headphone mode normally, turning CMSS-3D on, and leaving everything on Auto.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2025-03-13, 07:49:

I haven't tested this extensively as I prefer to use my 5.1 speakers

Lucky.
A separate room is needed for such a setup.

For multichannel acoustics, there is no point in activating the CMSS3D at all.
Only to make a multichannel from stereo, but this is pointless.
Games/movies already produce a multichannel 5.1 audio track.