ProfsRetroFix wrote on 2024-11-14, 16:26:

snipe3687 wrote on 2024-11-14, 15:54:

how did you build the voodoo card? obviously, you can't purchase the VSA-100 chips new anymore and I don't know many people who are doing BGA soldering at home. how would I go about getting it done as I can't really use the TL3 without it 😉

I bought a couple from a source someone linked here (I can't remember the site now), but you're right. I'm definitely not looking forward to balling it. I hope there's may another alternative! Maybe if we get the Gerber files, I can send it over to JLCPCB or something and have them do it when they produce the board? No clue yet.

I have a VSA-100 chip but I certainly don't have any intention of doing it myself if I can avoid it!

If you have a local computer repair place that can do BGA rework then that might be one option

rasteri wrote on 2024-11-14, 16:36:

If you have a local computer repair place that can do BGA rework then that might be one option

anyone know of any good practice kits? 🤣

To be honest, it is better to use a reflow oven. Also, the VSA-100 is widely available (You can get on ebay, here is a link https://www.ebay.com/itm/323658511158?_skw=VS … ABk9SR7rxztDlZA). Let me if you want me to help you.
Here is a link to a reflow oven: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154458706808?_skw=re … %3ABFBMxP260OVk

ahmadexp wrote on 2024-11-14, 23:33:

To be honest, it is better to use a reflow oven. Also, the VSA-100 is widely available (You can get on ebay, here is a link https://www.ebay.com/itm/323658511158?_skw=VS … ABk9SR7rxztDlZA). Let me if you want me to help you.
Here is a link to a reflow oven: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154458706808?_skw=re … %3ABFBMxP260OVk

Dang dude. do you have one? the price isn't bad but I have no idea how to use one and I just dropped 300 bucks to build my WeeCee/TinyLlama 3 bastardization 🤣.

snipe3687 wrote on 2024-11-15, 19:20:

ahmadexp wrote on 2024-11-14, 23:33:

To be honest, it is better to use a reflow oven. Also, the VSA-100 is widely available (You can get on ebay, here is a link https://www.ebay.com/itm/323658511158?_skw=VS … ABk9SR7rxztDlZA). Let me if you want me to help you.
Here is a link to a reflow oven: https://www.ebay.com/itm/154458706808?_skw=re … %3ABFBMxP260OVk

Dang dude. do you have one? the price isn't bad but I have no idea how to use one and I just dropped 300 bucks to build my WeeCee/TinyLlama 3 bastardization 🤣.

Well, I never look at the price for tools as part of a project, the same way you buy other generic tools and you add to your toolbox. I know that this might not apply to you.
In order to learn, I suggest you buy the rest of the reflow setup, hot air, soldering, etc and find some scrap hardware. Then take some BGA out, clean up the pads, do reballing and try to solder it back. The only way to get better is to have guided training. Best of luck, you can do it!

I just noticed that there's no longer the micro-B connectors on the version 3.3 board for programming the PicoGus and when I attempted to do it through the USB joystick port like I've done on the real PicoGus my computer becomes very unhappy. it says there is a short on the USB bus so I'm guessing you are only programming the PicoGus from the CM4 somehow? I'm just wondering what the best way to do it is.

snipe3687 wrote on 2024-11-25, 01:39:

I just noticed that there's no longer the micro-B connectors on the version 3.3 board for programming the PicoGus and when I attempted to do it through the USB joystick port like I've done on the real PicoGus my computer becomes very unhappy. it says there is a short on the USB bus so I'm guessing you are only programming the PicoGus from the CM4 somehow? I'm just wondering what the best way to do it is.

Use a powered USB hub and make sure you do not have the Vortex 86 as well as the GPU installed.

ahmadexp wrote on 2024-11-25, 05:34:

snipe3687 wrote on 2024-11-25, 01:39:

I just noticed that there's no longer the micro-B connectors on the version 3.3 board for programming the PicoGus and when I attempted to do it through the USB joystick port like I've done on the real PicoGus my computer becomes very unhappy. it says there is a short on the USB bus so I'm guessing you are only programming the PicoGus from the CM4 somehow? I'm just wondering what the best way to do it is.

Use a powered USB hub and make sure you do not have the Vortex 86 as well as the GPU installed.

Ok that was my next idea but I didn’t want to force too much power through. I know the power requirement is much higher with all the extra chips and the usb port is tied to the +5v bus. On the PicoGus there is a diode and a transistor to power from one or the other so I was worried I missed something 🤣.

What is the power draw of the new setup? I think I remember reading that USB draw is 800mA for usb 2.0 is that correct?

snipe3687 wrote on 2024-11-25, 14:21:

ahmadexp wrote on 2024-11-25, 05:34:

snipe3687 wrote on 2024-11-25, 01:39:

I just noticed that there's no longer the micro-B connectors on the version 3.3 board for programming the PicoGus and when I attempted to do it through the USB joystick port like I've done on the real PicoGus my computer becomes very unhappy. it says there is a short on the USB bus so I'm guessing you are only programming the PicoGus from the CM4 somehow? I'm just wondering what the best way to do it is.

Use a powered USB hub and make sure you do not have the Vortex 86 as well as the GPU installed.

Ok that was my next idea but I didn’t want to force too much power through. I know the power requirement is much higher with all the extra chips and the usb port is tied to the +5v bus. On the PicoGus there is a diode and a transistor to power from one or the other so I was worried I missed something 🤣.

What is the power draw of the new setup? I think I remember reading that USB draw is 800mA for usb 2.0 is that correct?

I did not check that. One thing to try before you go with the powered USB hub is to try a USB-A/USB-A cable to a USB-A/USB-C and see if that helps.

ok update!
I was able to get it to power up normally with the USB hub powered HOWEVER, I have an issue now where regardless of if i'm holding the BOOTSEL button or not, when I plug in the USB port the RP2 removable disk pops up for a second and then disappears and I can't drop the firmware on it to program. anyone have any thoughts what would cause that? it almost seems to me like something is grounded out that shouldn't be which is causing the boot select to assert itself regardless of if I'm holding that particular button. any help would be appreciated!

I am going to test the following MXM cards on the TL3.3 and share the results soon with everyone:

HP Z1 Workstation Quadro 1000M 2GB DDR3
ATI Radeon Mobility HD 5450 MXM GPU Card 512MB
HP AMD FirePro S4000X MxM 2GB GDDR5
APPLE MAC 631-0923 XSERVE GT120 256MB
HP AMD Radeon HD 7650A 2GB DDR3
Nvidia Quadro M2200M 4 GB GDDR5
Apple iMac ATI Radeon HD 4670 256MB
HP 8770W AMD Radeon FirePro M4000 GDDR5 1GB

Except the ones I crossed, the rest were able to provide VGA output and no HDMI, at least with the current TL3.3 board.

I doubt any of those cards will work in the TL3. Besides the MXM VBIOS that I'm pretty sure won't be executed by the system, there is a very high chance that none of those cards have an actual VGA output.
Most likely they only have DP++ outputs, which, to be converted to HDMI, would need extra circuitry on the carrier board:

The V4 M4800 outputs directly HDMI, so I doubt any of that stuff is present on the TL3. Also, the polarity on the V4 M4800 HDMI signals is inverted (N/P), as HDMI output was only added to help during the development of the FPGA code, it was never intended to be routed on the MXM connector, since it's used internally to feed into the scaler.

Well, here are the results:

None of the cards was able to output HDMI and six of them (shown in the picture below) were able to output VGA (@sdz, so it looks like they got an actual VGA output).
Three of the cards (the ones that belonged to Apple) did not even boot (repeated Beep) and one of the six (middle left with the black heatsink) turned ON but got stuck on "ERROR: Valid MXM Structure not found", so stay away from those.
@Eivind, would you please consider adding the DP++ to HDMI circuitry that @sdz proposed in order to make HDMI work.
@sdz, I would like to try to deadbug that on my board to see if that works too. Now I am wondering, would this solution coexist with using your Voodoo MXM card as well? Because, ultimately I want to have the Voodoo MXM card on my TL3

is the MXM to mini-PCIe adapter available or should I just try to make my own?

@ahmadexp
Those are really interesting results, thanks for testing!
I honestly expected none of them would have the VBIOS executed by the system.

I can modify this version of the board to make it coexist, if Eivind decides to modify the TL3 to be compatible with DP++ MXM cards.

sdz wrote on 2024-12-04, 19:09:

@ahmadexp Those are really interesting results, thanks for testing! I honestly expected none of them would have the VBIOS execu […]
Show full quote

@ahmadexp
Those are really interesting results, thanks for testing!
I honestly expected none of them would have the VBIOS executed by the system.

I can modify this version of the board to make it coexist, if Eivind decides to modify the TL3 to be compatible with DP++ MXM cards.

The attachment S3.jpg is no longer available

@sdz Seeing as I don't think you've sent any "Llama Edition" M4800s to manufacturing, nor have I my TL3 rev 3.4 yet - let's get this working! 😀
If you wouldn't mind, could you try to bring me up to speed - what would I need to add or change? Also, did I understand you correctly that the HDMI lines on the M4800 card currently in my possesion are technically wired up inversely according to the MXM spec? Thx!

Thank you @Eivind and @sdz, you guys are super awesome. Let me know if you two want me to send you those MXM cards so you can test it for yourself too.

@Eivind
No, I haven't sent it yet, it should just work as it has only some minor changes compared to the regular M4800.

Yes, the polarity (N/P) is inverted on the regular V4 M4800. For the Llama edition of the board, I'll flip those, and add whatever else is needed to make it behave like the other cards.

On the TL3 you would need to add this for HDMI:

And a 5V-3.3V level shifter for the corresponding hot plug detect line.

For VGA output, on the TL3, a level shifter is needed for DDC(3V<->5V), as well as a level shifter(3V->5V) for the HSYNC/VSYNC signals coming from the MXM card.

I will also modify the VGA RGB terminations on the V4 M800 Llama, and you would need to add another termination on the TL3, to make it look like this:

sdz wrote on 2024-12-05, 15:48:

@Eivind No, I haven't sent it yet, it should just work as it has only some minor changes compared to the regular M4800. […]
Show full quote

@Eivind
No, I haven't sent it yet, it should just work as it has only some minor changes compared to the regular M4800.

Yes, the polarity (N/P) is inverted on the regular V4 M4800. For the Llama edition of the board, I'll flip those, and add whatever else is needed to make it behave like the other cards.

On the TL3 you would need to add this for HDMI:

The attachment Screenshot 2024-12-02 140042.jpg is no longer available

And a 5V-3.3V level shifter for the corresponding hot plug detect line.

For VGA output, on the TL3, a level shifter is needed for DDC(3V<->5V), as well as a level shifter(3V->5V) for the HSYNC/VSYNC signals coming from the MXM card.

I will also modify the VGA RGB terminations on the V4 M800 Llama, and you would need to add another termination on the TL3, to make it look like this:

The attachment Screenshot 2024-12-05 155057.png is no longer available

I made the previous revision to fit the regular M4800 card you sent me, so I guess I should flip the polarities of those HDMI signals as well. Out of curiosity, is there a reason the DP_C_xx group is used (as opposed to A, B and D)?

When it comes to level shifting up to 5V - I actually didn't implement any of those the last time, neither for the VGA nor HDMI DDC/AUX/HSYNC/VSYNC/HPD lines. Did this still work flawlessly because you'd added something extra to that MXM card, or just because the monitors I used didn't care...?