I got hit with a nostalgia bug yesterday so I installed a few of the educational games I played as a little kid (and tragically gave away a few years later when my younger cousins got their first computer). The late 90's were a good time for those, though they tended to get remade/updated and re-released so often that tracking down the specific versions one remembers playing can be a bit of an ordeal. There are a couple I haven't been able to find at all on the usual abandonware sites.

clueless1 wrote on 2021-03-03, 23:03:

cliffclaven wrote on 2021-03-03, 17:06:

I’ve been meaning to return to Ultima VI since March of last year. I beat it back when it launched, but have just gotten stuck/lost on my recent play through. I’ve thought about looking at a hint, but I have such a hard time with that idea. On the one hand it feels like I’m cheating myself, but on the other hand, if I don’t, then I’m sorta cheating myself out of seeing this game through to the end and I really want to experience it fully again.

It’s basically what I do if I get stuck - stop playing, rather than ask for help. And I need to change that (Monkey Island is another).

I'm the opposite. Before I even start a game, I pull up a few different sites on the game (video and text walkthrus, player creation guides, maps, etc) and am not shy about referring to them as needed. For me, it makes games more enjoyable and less frustrating. But I'm old and have little time for gaming (~7 hours a week) so I want to make the most of my gaming time.

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself.
Also old (48) and not a lot of free time these days.

Thanks for providing some perspective for me.

cliffclaven wrote on 2021-03-05, 01:48:

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself. Also old (48) and not a lot of fr […]
Show full quote

clueless1 wrote on 2021-03-03, 23:03:

cliffclaven wrote on 2021-03-03, 17:06:

I’ve been meaning to return to Ultima VI since March of last year. I beat it back when it launched, but have just gotten stuck/lost on my recent play through. I’ve thought about looking at a hint, but I have such a hard time with that idea. On the one hand it feels like I’m cheating myself, but on the other hand, if I don’t, then I’m sorta cheating myself out of seeing this game through to the end and I really want to experience it fully again.

It’s basically what I do if I get stuck - stop playing, rather than ask for help. And I need to change that (Monkey Island is another).

I'm the opposite. Before I even start a game, I pull up a few different sites on the game (video and text walkthrus, player creation guides, maps, etc) and am not shy about referring to them as needed. For me, it makes games more enjoyable and less frustrating. But I'm old and have little time for gaming (~7 hours a week) so I want to make the most of my gaming time.

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself.
Also old (48) and not a lot of free time these days.

Thanks for providing some perspective for me.

It's the back and forth on this that really makes me miss the community around playing new games.

You play an old game, and you're pretty much on your own. Your choices are to white knuckle it, or desperately try to selectively read 100% walkthroughs.

You play a new game when it comes out with a community, and you can kind of help each other along a lot less directly. Maybe exercise a little judgement in which places you get stuck just need a little more effort, and which are just bullshit and here is the stupid answer. Took me 12 hours to figure that our on my own, and I hated it. You're welcome.

Sometimes I think about trying to find some sort of retro gaming book club type deal. But I doubt I'd have the time to commit to the experience, as much as I long for it. There is just no going back to being a kid, sitting around the lunch table, talking about what you discovered in the latest release you are all playing.

Namrok wrote on 2021-03-05, 18:37:

It's the back and forth on this that really makes me miss the community around playing new games. […]
Show full quote

cliffclaven wrote on 2021-03-05, 01:48:

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself. Also old (48) and not a lot of fr […]
Show full quote

clueless1 wrote on 2021-03-03, 23:03:

I'm the opposite. Before I even start a game, I pull up a few different sites on the game (video and text walkthrus, player creation guides, maps, etc) and am not shy about referring to them as needed. For me, it makes games more enjoyable and less frustrating. But I'm old and have little time for gaming (~7 hours a week) so I want to make the most of my gaming time.

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself.
Also old (48) and not a lot of free time these days.

Thanks for providing some perspective for me.

It's the back and forth on this that really makes me miss the community around playing new games.

You play an old game, and you're pretty much on your own. Your choices are to white knuckle it, or desperately try to selectively read 100% walkthroughs.

You play a new game when it comes out with a community, and you can kind of help each other along a lot less directly. Maybe exercise a little judgement in which places you get stuck just need a little more effort, and which are just bullshit and here is the stupid answer. Took me 12 hours to figure that our on my own, and I hated it. You're welcome.

Sometimes I think about trying to find some sort of retro gaming book club type deal. But I doubt I'd have the time to commit to the experience, as much as I long for it. There is just no going back to being a kid, sitting around the lunch table, talking about what you discovered in the latest release you are all playing.

Part of my issue with specifically Ultima VI is that I played and completed it 30 years ago. I don't have a great memory, but I can recall small bits and pieces, and I think that is causing me troubles. It would be better if I didn't have broken memories that are leading me astray as it's left me more lost.

Namrok wrote on 2021-03-05, 18:37:

It's the back and forth on this that really makes me miss the community around playing new games. […]
Show full quote

cliffclaven wrote on 2021-03-05, 01:48:

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself. Also old (48) and not a lot of fr […]
Show full quote

clueless1 wrote on 2021-03-03, 23:03:

I'm the opposite. Before I even start a game, I pull up a few different sites on the game (video and text walkthrus, player creation guides, maps, etc) and am not shy about referring to them as needed. For me, it makes games more enjoyable and less frustrating. But I'm old and have little time for gaming (~7 hours a week) so I want to make the most of my gaming time.

Oh I can definitely see your point. I’m just gonna have to be a little more lenient on myself.
Also old (48) and not a lot of free time these days.

Thanks for providing some perspective for me.

It's the back and forth on this that really makes me miss the community around playing new games.

You play an old game, and you're pretty much on your own. Your choices are to white knuckle it, or desperately try to selectively read 100% walkthroughs.

You play a new game when it comes out with a community, and you can kind of help each other along a lot less directly. Maybe exercise a little judgement in which places you get stuck just need a little more effort, and which are just bullshit and here is the stupid answer. Took me 12 hours to figure that our on my own, and I hated it. You're welcome.

Sometimes I think about trying to find some sort of retro gaming book club type deal. But I doubt I'd have the time to commit to the experience, as much as I long for it. There is just no going back to being a kid, sitting around the lunch table, talking about what you discovered in the latest release you are all playing.

This is where things like OCAU's monthly retro plays and races are cool. A bunch of retro dudes collectively playing through and discussing the same game each month.

Doom 3 BFG

I'm almost 4 hours into Doom 3 and am in Alpha Labs Sector 1. At this point, I'm thinking I probably won't finish this game. The level layouts are tight and confusing and I find myself backtracking a lot unintentionally, then trying to find my way back to the right path so I can move on to the next area. I'll keep at it a little bit, but looking at some walkthrus, it seems like I still have a LONG way to go after already putting in 4 hrs. Will this be a 20 hour game or a 40 hour game? Doesn't seem like there's a deep enough story to keep me engaged between all the jump scares. Thoughts? Does it get better? Does the level layout open up at all?

clueless1 wrote on 2021-03-06, 12:41:

Doom 3 BFG

I'm almost 4 hours into Doom 3 and am in Alpha Labs Sector 1. At this point, I'm thinking I probably won't finish this game. The level layouts are tight and confusing and I find myself backtracking a lot unintentionally, then trying to find my way back to the right path so I can move on to the next area. I'll keep at it a little bit, but looking at some walkthrus, it seems like I still have a LONG way to go after already putting in 4 hrs. Will this be a 20 hour game or a 40 hour game? Doesn't seem like there's a deep enough story to keep me engaged between all the jump scares. Thoughts? Does it get better? Does the level layout open up at all?

Doom3 was a bit of a departure from previous Doom games, for better or worse. You are right in that it's much more claustrophobic; haven't played it in quite some time but I think it pretty much stays that way the entire game. They were definitely going for something different in this iteration.

Right now I'm playing Doom Eternal, pretty fun.

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-03-06, 14:45:

Doom3 was a bit of a departure from previous Doom games, for better or worse. You are right in that it's much more claustrophobic; haven't played it in quite some time but I think it pretty much stays that way the entire game. They were definitely going for something different in this iteration.

Right now I'm playing Doom Eternal, pretty fun.

I'm a big defender of Doom 3. It's not the same kind of high-octane action you get from other Doom games; they were definitely going for more of a serious horror direction, and I think it works pretty decently. I'm also honestly not a fan of the famous "duct tape" mod (or the altered flashlight mechanics in the BFG Edition) because the game was deliberately designed around the limitation: without that constant dilemma between having the flashlight for visibility and having a gun for defense, it loses a lot of its tension. The more, yes, claustrophobic level design is also part of that atmosphere. Makes you feel more trapped. I dig it, anyway.

clueless1 wrote on 2021-03-06, 12:41:

Doom 3 BFG

I'm almost 4 hours into Doom 3 and am in Alpha Labs Sector 1. At this point, I'm thinking I probably won't finish this game. The level layouts are tight and confusing and I find myself backtracking a lot unintentionally, then trying to find my way back to the right path so I can move on to the next area. I'll keep at it a little bit, but looking at some walkthrus, it seems like I still have a LONG way to go after already putting in 4 hrs. Will this be a 20 hour game or a 40 hour game? Doesn't seem like there's a deep enough story to keep me engaged between all the jump scares. Thoughts? Does it get better? Does the level layout open up at all?

Doom 3 is an artistic masterpiece and I guarantee you a lot of folks don't agree with me. To fully experience the tension you have to play the original without the flashlight mod. There are parts of the game where it is pitch black and you have to choose between the gun or the light. Walk, shine, gun, shoot in the dark where you think you saw the baddie. Excellent mechanic imo. BFG edition is great for people who want a go at it again and have already experienced the original game to its fullest. BFG has enhanced visuals and they look gorgeous. The game was a tech marvel when it came out in 2004. Gameplay is pretty basic. Someone like you (I read your posts often) who likes deep RPG gameplay may grow weary in a short amount of time. Doom 3 is more of a FPS visual novel (shallow one at that). Doom 3 is really all about the atmosphere and visuals. The sound design alone is beyond incredible. Very engrossing. Since you seem to be near the end of your patience with the game I would advise you try The Lost Mission which comes with BFG. It is short and I think a good quality add-on that sums up what Doom 3 is about without having to go through the core game which is much longer. Maybe go through that since it has a beginning and end and see if you want more. It basically is a mini version of Doom 3.

@drosse1meyer, NovaCN, liqmat:

Thanks guys. I did play the original Doom 3 when it came out for probably a few hours. I kind of remember where I stopped playing, as I just got past that point this morning in the BFG edition. I remember back then getting lost backtracking and getting frustrated that I couldn't find the point I inadvertently backtracked so I could proceed on forward progress again. Some sort of automap would've helped with that, so you could see where you've already been, but I know that's not what the designers intended. I could take or leave the flashlight issue. I don't remember being annoyed by it the way it was then and I don't really dislike the way it is now. I like your suggestion, liqmat (I always pronounce your handle 'Liqui-mat' in my head) of playing The Lost Mission. For now, I'm going to keep forging on and see if it grows more on me. I'm not terribly bored with it yet or overly frustrated, but it is on the edge of what I'd consider "playable to the end" at this point. I'm more concerned with the game taking too long to finish then anything else. I like an FPS to take me 15-25 hours tops. I guess I could more closely follow a walkthrough (which I'm okay with) to prevent needless backtracking, or just play the add-on mission.

NovaCN wrote on 2021-03-06, 15:02:

drosse1meyer wrote on 2021-03-06, 14:45:

Doom3 was a bit of a departure from previous Doom games, for better or worse. You are right in that it's much more claustrophobic; haven't played it in quite some time but I think it pretty much stays that way the entire game. They were definitely going for something different in this iteration.

Right now I'm playing Doom Eternal, pretty fun.

I'm a big defender of Doom 3. It's not the same kind of high-octane action you get from other Doom games; they were definitely going for more of a serious horror direction, and I think it works pretty decently. I'm also honestly not a fan of the famous "duct tape" mod (or the altered flashlight mechanics in the BFG Edition) because the game was deliberately designed around the limitation: without that constant dilemma between having the flashlight for visibility and having a gun for defense, it loses a lot of its tension. The more, yes, claustrophobic level design is also part of that atmosphere. Makes you feel more trapped. I dig it, anyway.

I agree that Doom3 is a good game. I heard that the add-ons are as well but haven't tried them. Obviously anything with the Doom name will be inevitably compared to the originals, which most games can't hold a candle to. It was an absolutely ground breaking and transformative piece of software.

I think the interesting thing with Doom, especially with the reboots, is that it's somewhat going the way of Final Fantasy in that they have tried to make the series more about iconic recurring enemies, items, etc. with not much of a continuous overarching story between them, and adding in gameplay changes. I think that's good because it keeps the series fresh.

Honestly, I would have preferred if id Software kept going on the route they took for Doom 3. I liked Doom 2016, but Eternal didn't do it for me at all. I don't understand what's the necessity of limiting most combat to "arenas" with endless waves of enemies popping up, and all of this "combat loop" mumbo jumbo people seem to rave about makes it really repetitive. I know there were instances in Doom 1/2 (and even 3) where enemies would pop up near you after picking up certain items, but in general the enemy placements were pretty well integrated to the flow of each level rather than just throwing waves on you on designed arenas.

The inane platforming in Doom Eternal also pissed me off, in particular the platforming-only sections that had you swinging around like a monkey over lava pits. Just unnecessary padding.

Finally, the convoluted story and "lore" they introduced, what's the point of that?? Doom 3 has a straightforward story, but I feel it does its job of immersing the player in the world quite well. Whereas Eternal with all the ancient gods and Doom Slayer mythology makes it feel like a Sci-Fi channel reject. I know they claim to have gone to the roots of the original Doom with its tongue-in-cheek humor and stuff like that, but that game didn't delve deep into any kind of plot, and the fact that the storytelling ability of video games was much more limited in 1993 is not a reason to replicate that now. Same goes for the visuals and all the rainbow colored shit that pops up when you kill an enemy in Eternal.

TheMobRules wrote on 2021-03-06, 18:30:

... and all of this "combat loop" mumbo jumbo people seem to rave about makes it really repetitive. I know there were instances in Doom 1/2 (and even 3) where enemies would pop up near you after picking up certain items, but in general the enemy placements were pretty well integrated to the flow of each level rather than just throwing waves on you on designed arenas.

The inane platforming in Doom Eternal also pissed me off, in particular the platforming-only sections that had you swinging around like a monkey over lava pits. Just unnecessary padding.

I know they claim to have gone to the roots of the original Doom with its tongue-in-cheek humor and stuff like that ...

I completely, 100%, do not like the doom reboots and I definitely do not buy into the marketing that they "returned to the roots", just go play the original Doom and Doom II and it's as obvious as night and day.

I fired up Doom 2016 once and the arena felt so forced it throw me out of the game and I got bored of it fast.
The sad part is, I can't get my €60 back from Steam. Purchase is too old, even if I played 10 minutes. What a waste.

OTOH, I got Doom Zero for free and I'm enjoying it a lot with LZDOOM on Windows 98SE. 😀

TheMobRules wrote on 2021-03-06, 18:30:

Honestly, I would have preferred if id Software kept going on the route they took for Doom 3. I liked Doom 2016, but Eternal didn't do it for me at all. I don't understand what's the necessity of limiting most combat to "arenas" with endless waves of enemies popping up, and all of this "combat loop" mumbo jumbo people seem to rave about makes it really repetitive. I know there were instances in Doom 1/2 (and even 3) where enemies would pop up near you after picking up certain items, but in general the enemy placements were pretty well integrated to the flow of each level rather than just throwing waves on you on designed arenas

For me Doom 2016 played more like Serious Sam than Doom.
Waves of enemies for no reason.

I forced myself through doom eternal. Glad the game is denuvo infected so I can't play the dlc heh.

The Doom franchise is id software's child, it's glory, it's king-stone.

Except it isn't.

Doom was specifically Carmack & Romero + the other OG id software guys of the time, and the 90's.

It occurs to me that, in computer gaming, we often overlook how products are a direct result of the key personnel which created them. And/or, we mistakenly associate the glory of a success with the brand, and not enough with the actual, particular people and teams.

For example, in film cinema, it's standard to refer to certain movies as "Spielberg" or "Scorsese" or "Nolan" or "Coen Brothers" projects, with the understanding that those people's unique direction and style imbues every frame of the movie - it is "their" work, and when people look for a reason as to why it's great, we simply say... "well, it's a great Spielberg!" for example, and everyone immediately knows what we mean. We don't say "that's a great New Line Cinema", or "a fantastic MGM production".

And so I say with the original Dooms (1 and 2). Those games were great because they are the product of a particular, unique, masterful team of the era. The two Johns, and the rest of the small team which many of us have read about in Masters of Doom. Later games which use the same IP but not the same team, are simply (imo) not even expected to be in the same category. Not to say they can't be good games in their own right!, but they do not have the heritage - the creators! - of the original games, and never will.

Thus comparing Doom to Doom 2016/etc, or even to the still-Carmacking Doom 3, is to me a bit like comparing Jaws to Sharknado and noting "hmm, Sharknado isn't a very authentic Jaws!!". 🤣

I could agree with Shreddoc. For example, take my preference with racing games:

If my memory serves well, the four Grand Prix games, they all were released under different brands: MicroProse, Hasbro and Infogrames. But they all are recognized as a Geoff Crammond creation, although I think that only GP1 and GP2 were a direct result of his direction. GP3 was where Hasbro almost f*cked it up, and GP4 was pretty close to perfection when they f*cked with the mutiplayer system. When I say almost perfect, it’s because it has been 20 years since its release and GP4 is still going strong with several mods for literally every F1 season and different racing series such as IndyCar and Formula E. But the game did not make it into online racing championships, like how it happened with the rFactor/EA Sports F1 2002 “boom”.

Last year I saw an interview with Crammond himself about GP4 and what plans he really had for it. At that time, he had even considered to come back and do a GP5, but things took an U-turn and we all know what happened... a terrible amount of Codemasters releases...

Grand Prix 1 is still regarded as the racing game with the best AI cars. Even Image Space Incorporated with their EA Sports F1 releases and rFactor couldn’t even get close (and believe me, I have a huge mileage playing these titles). I am yet to see a new F1 game doing justice to a proper F1 simulation, like Crammond did in the 90’s.

As for Doom, I can only speak for the two titles I played in my life: Doom I and Doom II. Both were very good and scary, for a kid like I was back then. I had nightmares with that game, 🤣. Good times.

Speaking of Doom 3, I'm still slowly making my way through it. I'm continually astounded how much the jump scares, monster closets, teleporting behind you, darkness and screen shaking just take a toll on me. I beat Delta Labs Level 2 today... and the last time I played was 2 weeks ago. Took me that long to work up the energy after work, child and wife, at 10-11pm, to think to myself "I've got enough left in the tank for this."

I keep trying to sort out my feelings on it. I don't hate it. When I was in my 20's I think I played it straight through in 24-48 hours. And then again. And probably again. I was downloading mods off the NVNews forums because some dude added a bunch more detail to the shading models. I was eagerly awaiting the Classic Doom mod that was recreating the shareware levels of Doom, along with guitar renditions of the sound track.

Now that I think about it, I should probably give that a spin again too.

But yeah, I am just not enjoying the scares of it at all now. I'm getting through it because I spend the money on an Athlon 64/Geforce 6800 rig with Doom 3 in mind, and god damnit, I'm gonna beat Doom 3 on it. Pleasure be damned. We're operating on principle now.

For my next endeavor, I think I'll put Kohan 2 on there. In probably 2 more months after I've finally put Doom 3 to rest.

Yeah, I'm still going through it too. I'm somewhere in the Enpro plant levels, about 1/3 through the game. I've clockec 6.4 hours into it. One thing I've started doing is when I see an opportunity to move forward, I take it. No more backtracking to get every single weapon, ammo, health, and secret. That should help keep the game a manageable length.