alexanrs wrote:

Oh, and for composing music don't get an AWE if you intend to be period correct (they are from 1994). Honestly, don't get an AWE32 even if you do not care about period correctness. They have the hanging note bug when communicating with external modules/wavetables. 1992 means SB16, and with those you either have bug-free MPU-401 and bad sound quality or good sound quality and buggy MPU-401. To really use 1992/1993 hardware for music composing odds are you'll need a discrete ISA MPU-401 interface to connect your synths, and a SBPro or the older SB16 models for digital sound. Or maybe a classic Gravis Ultrasound (those are harder to get) instead of a Creative card.

for midi i plan on using my portman 4x4 which connects via parallel port
http://www.oldschooldaw.com/forums/index.php?topic=345.0

its got 4 midi ports which means up to 64 separate midi channels..!
i don't think it was out in 1992/1993 tbh, think it came out around 95.. but it does have a windows 3.1 driver. i think the singular portman PC/P + portman PC/S models were out earlier then 95 tho.
but according to this site: http://www.tmfile.com/mk/mi/midiman7.php
the trademark for the company "midi man" was filed in may 1993… so the first portman products must have shown up between may 93 + aug 95 (when windows 95 was released)

chrisNova777, you can do some research on Google Books to try to pin this down:
Looks like MidiMan introduced its first product 1991... but PortMan doesn't seem to appear until 1995 at the earliest... and the Portman 4x4/S not until 1997...
https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=of … +%22port+man%22
https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=of … 2+%22portman%22
https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=of … 2+%22portman%22
https://www.google.com/search?num=100&safe=of … +%22port+man%22\\

ok wow ive just read and watched a video on Vesa Local Bus.. and i had no idea it was what it is..
and its very much enhanced + above the speed of ISA..

ISA 8-bit 2.39 MB/s
ISA 16-Bit 8.33 MB/s
EISA 32bit 33.32 MB/s
VLB 32bit 132.0MB/ sec

so - to say that its faster is an understatement!! its up to 16 times faster!!!!! theoretically basically a 486 only version of PCI..
i had no idea that it was this capable i thought it was kind of a joke.
not sure i ever had any machines with VLB back in the early 90s when i actually had 486 computers + built them
VLB was above + beyond the call for most people back then they didnt really care about that level of performance
im pretty sure

Stiletto u are probably right but at the same time, its backward compatible with windows 3.1
i think the ISA based WINMAN interface is for windows only.. but the PORTMAN interfaces might have a DOS level driver..
i was looking to find a MPU-401 for true dos midi compatibility so i think it may be the case that it (the portman 4x4) doesnt have a dos driver either.. but like i said it does work on windows 3.1.. there is a possibility i might want to explore using voyetra or cakewalk dos based sequencers but most of my interest is in creating a period correct cubase 1.0 for windows machine!!
the portman 4x4 offers 4 ins + 4 outs.. i dont think i could find any DOS compatible interfaces that offer the same amount of midi i/o i think
most of the mpu-401 compatibles only have 1 midi port and intend on you using THRU chains + seperate midi channels
that is.. if anyone knows any true MPU-401 that has more than 1in + 1out please speak up 😉

VLB does seem like it offers greatly enhanced performance for gaming + graphics.. but to be honest the whole reason i want to build this system is to test midi jitter + timing performance within early versions of logic/cubase/vision for windows (on the types of hardware it was originally programmed for rather then the pentium enhanced systems that came after).. ive used cubase on pII + pIII systems and noticed it behaving strangely most noticably when zooming in + out in the UI.. it goes WAYYY Too fast much like the behaviour of playing a DOS game like kings quest on a pentium 4 or higher, the cpu is way faster then the cycles it was intended to be run on originally.. so im hoping to see it become more usable for actual composition of midi in the cubase interface when its run on ISA based hardware.. using 486 cpu. cubase for windows the original version was touted to be very similar in performance to the original ATARI version which holds the crown for midi jitter performance still to this day!!! and im tryiing to investigate if the enhancements + changes to the technology (PCI, VLB etc) around 1994-1995 changed things for the worse, in regard to MIDI timing + performance, which seems to behave better on more rudimentary basic computers like the atari + MPC.

like i said earlier i read something in one of the old versions of cubase that blamed some audio recording dropouts
on the programming of the PCI VIDEO graphics driver takin precendence over the writing of data to disk .... im wondering if utilizing VLB technology would have a beneficial or neutral/irrelevant effect on midi timing. it seems like an interesting technology to have a chance to experiment with but the costs of the VLB graphics cards on ebay are looking to be more then what its worth to me to explore... definately of more interest to retro gamers! rather then retro midi enthusiasts

i will probably get a board that has these enhanced slots but ignore them for now.
i suppose using an I/O controller that is VLB may provide better data input/output via ECP/EPP parallel port when connected via VLB instead of ISA but. i guess i will have to test to see if theres any difference in peformance and add this to the scope of my experiment!

im willing to guess buying a "Super multi io controller" for VLB would be alot less $$ then buying a VLB graphics card.

this video also says that VLB can be unstable at overclocked frequencies (40mhz, 50mhz) but that its stable + Fine when using dx2-66 & dx4-100 due to the way in which these cpu are clock multiplied internally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qla-5isbK60&t=670

VLB is fast (and can be faster than PCI in some situations), but VLB systems are usually harder to find than PCI. If you get a VLB motherboard do get a VLB multi IO - a 486 is more than fast enough to handle disk access that is too fast for the ISA bus. If you get a PCI board they usually already have what you'd get out of a multi-IO controller onboard (IDE, LPT, RS232, FD), so that is out of the equation. Both can use ISA graphics cards without trouble.

looks like the midiman winman series didnt start till 1995 too.

i also forgot that they also made an mpu-401 compatible, the mm-401
on one of the pics here its clearly visible dated as 1991

chrisNova777 wrote:

was there ever any pentium boards that had only ISA slots (NO PCI) ?????

Off course not, why should they used all ISA slots? ISA was the problem that was to slow back in the days.. This problem growed on the 386 platform because it wasnt possible to get faster interconnections for graphics cards en controller card.. Thats why they came with the Local bus, later EISA, and much later VLB.. But the technic that was used couldnt be used on the pentium 1 platform because of design flaws..
So the later 486 motherboard did get PCI instead.. Also this PCI / ISA combination was very common on the pentium platform.. PCI was used for faster interconnection.. The things that doesnt need that, did used regular isa instead.. Also later the PCI slots wherent capible to drive more bandwith higher hungry graphics cards, So thats why AGP came in place..

if i got a 486 board without built in IDE controller.. i just remembered that the awe32 card i have has an IDE Controller on it..
i dont know if this IDE connection is able to support an IDE hard drive, or if its only for CDROM connection.
does anyone know if the AWE32 IDE controller works for a boot drive? i dont have the card here its in storage at the moment otherwise id test it myself... wondering if i could attach a CF/IDE adapter + 2gb compact flash drive.. probably not the best idea but i do remember the last time i was trying to use this card i was trying to disable the onboard IDE and there was no jumpers.. then i realized it could be disabled via software because i have the PNP version of the AWE32..

is plug'n'play supported on 486 systems? sorry for all the questions!!

chrisNova777 wrote:

if i got a 486 board without built in IDE controller.. i just remembered that the awe32 card i have has an IDE Controller on it. […]
Show full quote

if i got a 486 board without built in IDE controller.. i just remembered that the awe32 card i have has an IDE Controller on it..
i dont know if this IDE connection is able to support an IDE hard drive, or if its only for CDROM connection.
does anyone know if the AWE32 IDE controller works for a boot drive? i dont have the card here its in storage at the moment otherwise id test it myself... wondering if i could attach a CF/IDE adapter + 2gb compact flash drive.. probably not the best idea but i do remember the last time i was trying to use this card i was trying to disable the onboard IDE and there was no jumpers.. then i realized it could be disabled via software because i have the PNP version of the AWE32..

is plug'n'play supported on 486 systems? sorry for all the questions!!

I'm pretty sure its just for CD drives. Just get a dedicated IDE controller. there dirt cheap

is there anyone on vogons site from north america who can sell me a pre-built 486 system??? 😁 save me alot of trouble;)
not looking forward to finding compatible controller + video card..

looking to get a "socket 3" 486 ISA/VL board (no PCI) with ISA/VL IO controller, ISA graphics card, DX2 66 cpu + at least 8MB of ram
+ AT style case of course

chrisNova777 wrote:

is there anyone on vogons site from north america who can sell me a pre-built 486 system??? 😁 save me alot of trouble;)

there is no buying/selling allowed on Vogons. there are other Vintage Computer Forums though that do have buy/sell forums.

oh ok. that sucks;( u guys seem to know best all of this stuff..

will an ISA graphics card work with a 1280x1020 4:3 aspect ratio VGA LCD?
or do i have to use a CRT monitor?

i just saw on another thread that its possible to get a single VLB card that has both graphics + I/O Controller??

The card will work, but not at the monitor's native resolution, so things might get a bit blurry.

unless your really worried about saving space and having enough slots I would be wary of a single VLB card that has both graphics + I/O Controller. Its probably just me but "jack of all trades and master of none" comes to mind. I would just get a separate video card. makes things easier if one or the other ever fails as well.

I can make it real easy for you. here is my recommendation based on what you seem to be wanting. you seem to want a 486 build ISA based with VLB as an option. it doesnt seem to me you are looking to build a super fast hot rod rig just a capable one for a decent price. I suggest

ANY 486 motherboard with VLB slots (2 are fine)
Intel 66mhz DX2 or if you want most speed for the price an AMD 5x86 133mhz
256kb of L2 cache
8-32MB of FPM RAM of the type your board will take
ANY VLB video card with at least 1mb of video ram
ANY VLB or ISA multi I/0 controller with IDE
500-2gb IDE hard drive or compact flash card w/ cf adaptor
sound blaster 16

build this machine and see how you like it and expand from there if you really feel you need to but this setup will probably give you the best bang for the buck with good compatibility all around and minimum hassl

i keep coming back to this board: ASUS PVI-486SP3 (gigabyte equivelant = Gigabyte GA-5486AL? and another SOYO SiS 85C497)
because it seems to have all the I/O built in... and still is a socket 3 which can take a 486 cpu
and i think it has this PS/2 mouse connection header aswell? which means i could use it with a ps/2 mouse + keyboard hopefully?
i think it will take the 16MB simm 's that i have already for a total of 32MB fast page ram.
the pci slots i dont have to use if i dont want to..
which leaves me with 1 VLB slot + 3 ISA
which should be enough
i would need an AT style case + power supply connectors of course
but at least i wouldnt have to buy a VLB I/O controller because its built into the board
and i would also have the option of using a PCI graphics card.. such a matrox millenium 200 or 400
i guess i would need a ribbon connector + paralle port tho to attach to the board. im guessing buying those would be
cheaper then buying a whole IO controller aswell.

is there any other boards that are socket 3 that have integrated IO Controllers with good chipset (SIS or UMC right?)
i read someone saying to stay away from "OPTI" chipsets.. is "ALI" ok?? what about "VIA"?
that anyone could suggest for me to look for?

Re: the integrated IO controller
seems to be the SIS 497 & SIS 496 have it and the SIS 471,SIS 469, SIS 461 dont

timing is everything.. trying to find this stuff for a price thats not totally a rip off is proving challenging

thanks again for walking me thru these questions guys i really appreciate it

is there a preffered bios by most vogons users?
Phoenix? Award? AMI?

am i going about this wrong by looking for the boards that have integrated IO? (such as sis 496/497 boards, + Gigabyte GA-5486AL)
is it actually a benefit to have the system board WITHOUT The I/O controller built in.. so that u can change/customize + have full controll over which controller u use? are they all pretty much equal? or does getting a good I/O controler (that uses VLB or not) have a major benefit to the overall zip of the system?

a PS/2 header on motherboards with a AT port for keyboard I *think* will only allow you to use a mouse with the ps/2 port.

The issue with PCI motherboards even if you don't plan on using the PCI slots is there expensive. if budget isn't much of a concern go for it but none PCI socket 3 boards seem a good deal easier to come across especially in "the wild". My main 486 is built around the UM 486V AIO motherboard, AMI BiOS and UMC chipset. been rock solid for me for years. BTW it is none PCI and has I/O built in. Ive never had any issues with it and run it along side a SCSI controller for a 2nd hard drive and SCSI ZIP drive.
The benefit of a built in I/O controller is convenience, saves you a expansion card slot(s). Downside is if It dies your out of luck and will need to buy an I/o controller anyways. also as you said the built in controller may not be as fast as a discrete card.

yes i intended on using a AT -> PS/2 connector/adapter for the keyboard..
http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/produc … FCABLE.Main.jpg
and aswell having read tips from other threads on vogons i saw it was possible to wire a ps2 adapter from a pci bracket to the 4 pin header for the PS2 Mouse which is only on a few different boards with AT style keyboard ports.... maybe it was only on pentium boards with AT keyboard ports? but im hoping its included on these 486 boards that have integrated controllers.. so that i can use a modern mouse properly with the real socket 3 486 machine.

http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/produc … LATE6F.Main.jpg

this pic may not be correct tho because that looks like a USB header and not this speical U-shape 4pin ps2 that was referenced in the thread i read

i think this one is correct:

the header is 2 x 4 with 2 pins missing (6 pins?) and is directly next to the AT keyboard port on the asus 486-sp3 board
http://imageshack.us/download/853/a5z.jpg
it says "ps2mouse" right near the header on the board aswell!

is this the only way to get a working ps2 mouse with a 486 board?
its not possible to use 486 cpus in socket 7 boards that have ps2 ports?

i read in another thread that a guy had to set a jumper to enable this ps2 support
and in another thread i read that to have this ps2mouse port there needs to be a seperate "keyboard bios" somwhere on the board
on the 486-sp3 i think its this big eeprom that says "AMIKEY" i have seen other boards that say "keyboard bios" on a chip

also the PVI-486AP4 seems to be similar to the PVI-486SP3 but with intel chipset http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archive/Asus/48 … /PVI-486AP4.jpg) has less io headers but it has the same ps2mouse header at least